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Forums - Politics Discussion - China Just Overtook The US As The World's Largest Economy

Good for them I guess?



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the2real4mafol said:
Technically this happened years ago as China most likely has much less debt than America. US debt is $16 trillion! And apparently 97% of all money in the world is debt which is something waiting to go wrong.

16 trillion is only a tip of an iceberg, do not forget about 50+ trillion of US household debt, even though these figures are likely to cover each other to a great degree. As for percents. Well, last time I checked world money supply (M3) was estimated at smth like 50+ trillion USD and that was years ago. Take a guess how much is that :D

 

China overtaking US GDP is purely symbolical event regardless of if it did really happen, happened long time ago or only will happen, as symbolical as GDP figures themselves these days that doesn't really represent anything meaningfull in debt-driven world economy. Most definetly Chinese economy growth won't sustain, that's no brainer as the country have been living through the era majority of western European countries have gone through in early-mid 19th century, the US in 1860-70s, Soviet Union in 1920-30s etc., the era that's coming to an end. Cheap resources within and outside the country (labour and energy) are past or near its peak figures, and for export-oriented economy like Chinese current events in the world that most likely will lead to dive in the demand are obviously not presenting a bright future. US attempts to shatter fragile energy market are damaging too but to a lesser degree, afair China imports smth like 10% of its energy consumption, that's bearable, yet coal is not endless (coal exports took a steep dive somewhere in 2004 when China has begun to be very power-hungry, today China is coal-importer). But I'm more or less optimistic about China's future. The most worrisome countries are those that: a) have a big proportion of industrial production in the economy; b) are huge energy importers, i.e. could not guarantee sustaining current levels from the energy production within its national borders or territories they could guarentee a constant flow of energy resources from. Classical example  of the horse I wouldn't bet my money on is Japan. Those who enjoy Yakuza games on their PS3s shortly will be able to try this in real life due to rapid lumpenization of Japan's population :D



mai said:
the2real4mafol said:
Technically this happened years ago as China most likely has much less debt than America. US debt is $16 trillion! And apparently 97% of all money in the world is debt which is something waiting to go wrong.

16 trillion is only a tip of an iceberg, do not forget about 50+ trillion of US household debt, even though these figures are likely to cover each other to a great degree. As for percents. Well, last time I checked world money supply (M3) was estimated at smth like 50+ trillion USD and that was years ago. Take a guess how much is that :D

 

China overtaking US GDP is purely symbolical event regardless of if it did really happen, happened long time ago or only will happen, as symbolical as GDP figures themselves these days that doesn't really represent anything meaningfull in debt-driven world economy. Most definetly Chinese economy growth won't sustain, that's no brainer as the country have been living through the era majority of western European countries have gone through in early-mid 19th century, the US in 1860-70s, Soviet Union in 1920-30s etc., the era that's coming to an end. Cheap resources within and outside the country (labour and energy) are past or near its peak figures, and for export-oriented economy like Chinese current events in the world that most likely will lead to dive in the demand are obviously not presenting a bright future. US attempts to shatter fragile energy market are damaging too but to a lesser degree, afair China imports smth like 10% of its energy consumption, that's bearable, yet coal is not endless (coal exports took a steep dive somewhere in 2004 when China has begun to be very power-hungry, today China is coal-importer). But I'm more or less optimistic about China's future. The most worrisome countries are those that: a) have a big proportion of industrial production in the economy; b) are huge energy importers, i.e. could not guarantee sustaining current levels from the energy production within its national borders or territories they could guarentee a constant flow of energy resources from. Classical example  of the horse I wouldn't bet my money on is Japan. Those who enjoy Yakuza games on their PS3s shortly will be able to try this in real life due to rapid lumpenization of Japan's population :D

China is following similar trends to Japan in the 60s and early 70s from the looks of it although they have far more land to expand onto. Energy is the big problem (for them and everyone else) as you said but relying on fossil fuels just won't cut it with such a high demand and instability of many regions around the world. 

The west needs to stop thinking it can grow anymore, the world is finite. Pretty simple really 

And the global debt is probably something that ridiculous. Although its hard to understand how it got so high in the first place.  

Also what do you mean by lumpenization? I never heard of that before. 



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the2real4mafol said:

China is following similar trends to Japan in the 60s and early 70s from the looks of it although they have far more land to expand onto. Energy is the big problem (for them and everyone else) as you said but relying on fossil fuels just won't cut it with such a high demand and instability of many regions around the world.

Fossil fuels aren't indeed an answer in mid-term scenario, but at this point you won't find a single meaningful contry that is ready to shift to other energy resources. Renewables are hoax, an epic "revelation" made by Germany's minsiter earlier this year in front of "green energy" bomonde: "Energiewende program is on the verge of failure" :D The guys who sold Germany idea of major investment in renewables are either traitors or idiots, or both. Renewables outside hydro are leech upon the cheap fossil fuels and with readily available oil gone their efficency is droping below self-sustaining levels. This is a dead-end. What we have on another hand? Nuclear energy, that's more interesting topic. Well, when Hubbert was drawing his curve he assumed steady process of replacement with nuclear energy, but by now it is clear we as a humanity far-far behind the trends and inability to replace fossil fuels declining production only makes it worse (even though barrels won't be entirely empty, but scissors of declining demand and price from the above and declinign EROI that ramping up the production cost from below will speed the process up). Over here, which is Russian equivalent of ZH the guy from within the industry have made a very rough analysis what size of a project that'd be to replace Russia's energy consumption in 2020-50 with nuclear-generated energy, based on newly put into production BN-1200 (his smaller counterpart BN-800 is mind you first proudction series reactor of its kind to be run commercially this year) -- his diagnosis is 4 energy blocks a year, a GOELRO-sized project -- needless to say even if Rosatom stops all other projects abrod now that's not realistic and decline in energy production is unavoidable. The sad part is this's relatively good scenario when it comes to replacement with nuclear energy, for once fuel for fast-neutron reactors are in order of magnitude more common than smth like VVER would have used. What else we've got? Thorium reactors, zero commercial availability. Everything else is even less realistic.

the2real4mafol said:

The west needs to stop thinking it can grow anymore, the world is finite. Pretty simple really 

And the global debt is probably something that ridiculous. Although its hard to understand how it got so high in the first place.

Here's to take a peak on how that was made possible, energy consumption per capita, a more meaningful indicator of one's wealth than GDP per capita btw if you "clean" it from various noises and present, say, only real sector economy consumption, quite literally everything could be converted in kcal. The author of the articel did make a solid point, the US energy consumption is more or less within 1970s boundaries, while "real" (or rather available) wealth is obviously up since that time. How to solve that dilemma? Well, take a look at household debt, even timeframe, the 1970s, very well reasonates with this. Everyone is guilty of the same by beleving in this seemengly endless "growth", but some more than the others.

the2real4mafol said:

Also what do you mean by lumpenization? I never heard of that before. 

What? That's not an English word? :D I get carried away at times with occasional russisms, that might not be used or used in different meaning in English. The word "lumpen" is from Marxian vocabulary, same as pauper, declassified proletariat, poor people in common speech, that's more or less the same what's yakuza originally.



China's imposing an import tax on coal which will hit Russia and Australia. This will be a large blow for both of their economies.

However, it's important to ask why they are imposing this tax: because the global price of coal is falling, and China's domestic industry cannot run at a profit at the global price level.

Falling coal prices are a terrible, terrible, sign. China is the world's largest coal consumer, and they primarily consume it for electricity generation. If prices are falling for coal, that likely means that demand is falling for coal, and thus, likely falling or lower-growth-than-expected demand for energy in China. Indicating China's real economy is in far worse shape than their Gov't or the IMF are reporting.



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SamuelRSmith said:
China's imposing an import tax on coal which will hit Russia and Australia. This will be a large blow for both of their economies.

However, it's important to ask why they are imposing this tax: because the global price of coal is falling, and China's domestic industry cannot run at a profit at the global price level.

Falling coal prices are a terrible, terrible, sign. China is the world's largest coal consumer, and they primarily consume it for electricity generation. If prices are falling for coal, that likely means that demand is falling for coal, and thus, likely falling or lower-growth-than-expected demand for energy in China. Indicating China's real economy is in far worse shape than their Gov't or the IMF are reporting.

Only coking coal and anthracite is the subject of said tax, so everything else you wrote kinda fell flat.



mai said:

Only coking coal and anthracite is the subject of said tax, so everything else you wrote kinda fell flat.


Coking and athracite coal have a 3% import tax

Non-coking (used in power generation) 6%

Other coal based fuels, 5%.



SamuelRSmith said:
China's imposing an import tax on coal which will hit Russia and Australia. This will be a large blow for both of their economies.

However, it's important to ask why they are imposing this tax: because the global price of coal is falling, and China's domestic industry cannot run at a profit at the global price level.

Falling coal prices are a terrible, terrible, sign. China is the world's largest coal consumer, and they primarily consume it for electricity generation. If prices are falling for coal, that likely means that demand is falling for coal, and thus, likely falling or lower-growth-than-expected demand for energy in China. Indicating China's real economy is in far worse shape than their Gov't or the IMF are reporting.

Of course coal is falling in price. People are trying to move towards other kinds of fuel. Their is also more competition now for it. And coal is probably the most plentiful fossil fuel out there.

Also, in general i think prices need to fall a bit if people aren't seeing pay rises



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the2real4mafol
Of course coal is falling in price. People are trying to move towards other kinds of fuel. Their is also more competition now for it. And coal is probably the most plentiful fossil fuel out there.
Also, in general i think prices need to fall a bit if people aren't seeing pay rises

http://www.climatecentral.org/blogs/chinas-growing-coal-use-is-worlds-growing-problem-16999

During its peak, China added two 600mw coal power plant per week, for seven straight years. For the next ten years, China will add one of these plants per 10 days.

Between 2005 and 2013, China added 1.5 times the entire capacity of the US coal power generation.

China consumes 4 billion tonnes of coal a year. USA and EU combined uses 1.6 billion tonnes.

70% of China's electricity comes from coal. If coal prices are falling, it's must probably because demand for electricity is falling, or lower than expectations



Ka-pi96 said:
That's a really poor way of looking at it. Maybe their domestic economy is better, but on a global scale actually compared to other countries they are still a long way behind.

Oh... and I wonder how the EU does on this, I think they are technically first. Just need to hurry up and unite as a single country so we can dominate the worlds economy

Yay.. Just As long as we dont include spain and greece in this economic revolution