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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Can/will Nintendo ever see the Wii + DS height ever again?

I doubt any company will sell over 250 million dedicated video game hardware units in 8 years ever again.



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RolStoppable said:
Teeqoz said:
RolStoppable said:
Teeqoz said:

the 3DS has the sequels to two of the four 20 million+ sellers (at least, I don't know about Nintendogs.) Yet none of them are close to those numbers. Obviously those games largely drifted on the incredible success of the DS. What you're saying is akin to saying that

'it wasn't the motion controls that sold the Wii, it was Wii Sports that did it'

And the DS didn't have the fierce competetion of phones and tablets that the 3DS has now.

That gave me a good chuckle.

How?

Because you imply that that is wrong when it actually is how things work.

Think about it: How can Nintendo hardware continue to exist when third party support is so lackluster and has been for two decades now? The only explanation is that Nintendo content drives the hardware sales, because ultimately dedicated gaming machines are bought to play video games. Hardware doesn't sell itself.

Your last sentence in the preceding post makes the mistake of drawing a conclusion based on current market conditions and accepting them as definitive. Let's go back ten years: It's 2004, the GameCube struggles mightily, third parties are abandoning ship. Now the question is posed if Nintendo will ever be able to reach the NES height again. Your answer would be: "No, because the NES didn't have the fierce competition of Sony and Microsoft that Nintendo has now." - But if we go back to the present, to the year 2014, we have the benefit of hindsight. Now we know that Nintendo not only reached the NES height, but eclipsed it. We know that looking at market conditions of a given time and thinking of them as unchangeable can make us horribly wrong, especially in a business that resets to 0 each generation.

And this leads back to it being in Nintendo's hands to create software that pushes their hardware to such heights. Nintendogs and Brain Training have fizzled out in the 3DS era, but what's there that prevents Nintendo from making new IPs? Only their own decision-making processes. Nintendogs and Brain Training were new IPs in the DS era and largely responsible for the sales uptick in hardware. Before their releases, the DS lagged behind the GBA. Afterwards the DS accelerated and never looked back.

Nintendo could've used any game that utilises the motion controls for the marketing. Heck, they could've used a Kinect Adventures style game.  In the Wii's case, the only important role Wii Sports played was marketing the concept, the Wii. I'm not disputing the "software sells hardware" thing.

"Now the question is posed if Nintendo will ever be able to reach the NES height again"

But that isn't what this should be compared to. The question would be "can Nintendo reach PS2 levels" because the PS2 is the highest selling homeconsole, while I'm saying Nintendo will never replicate the DS , the highest selling handheld. I'm sure Nintendo could make a handheld that could replicate the succes of the original gameboy, the equivalent to the Wii to NES comparison.



RolStoppable said:
Teeqoz said:

How?

Because you imply that that is wrong when it actually is how things work.

Think about it: How can Nintendo hardware continue to exist when third party support is so lackluster and has been for two decades now? The only explanation is that Nintendo content drives the hardware sales, because ultimately dedicated gaming machines are bought to play video games. Hardware doesn't sell itself.

Your last sentence in the preceding post makes the mistake of drawing a conclusion based on current market conditions and accepting them as definitive. Let's go back ten years: It's 2004, the GameCube struggles mightily, third parties are abandoning ship. Now the question is posed if Nintendo will ever be able to reach the NES height again. Your answer would be: "No, because the NES didn't have the fierce competition of Sony and Microsoft that Nintendo has now." - But if we go back to the present, to the year 2014, we have the benefit of hindsight. Now we know that Nintendo not only reached the NES height, but eclipsed it. We know that looking at market conditions of a given time and thinking of them as unchangeable can make us horribly wrong, especially in a business that resets to 0 each generation.

And this leads back to it being in Nintendo's hands to create software that pushes their hardware to such heights. Nintendogs and Brain Training have fizzled out in the 3DS era, but what's there that prevents Nintendo from making new IPs? Only their own decision-making processes. Nintendogs and Brain Training were new IPs in the DS era and largely responsible for the sales uptick in hardware. Before their releases, the DS lagged behind the GBA. Afterwards the DS accelerated and never looked back.

Great post that says it all, really.

If Nintendo had launched a motion control console with no software to show that there was vision behind the design in the first place, it likely would have bombed spectacularly.  This has never been more evident than with the WiiU; it still doesn't have the game that shows that Nintendo had a reason for the console's design.  

This is why I think (read: hope) that Mario Maker is a success - because the game, theoretically, has the chops to do more for WiiU than any of the Wii Sports/Wii Fit sequels that they throw at it.  It gives the console its own identity.



RolStoppable said:
Teeqoz said:

Nintendo could've used any game that utilises the motion controls for the marketing. Heck, they could've used a Kinect Adventures style game.  In the Wii's case, the only important role Wii Sports played was marketing the concept, the Wii. I'm not disputing the "software sells hardware" thing.

"Now the question is posed if Nintendo will ever be able to reach the NES height again"

But that isn't what this should be compared to. The question would be "can Nintendo reach PS2 levels" because the PS2 is the highest selling homeconsole, while I'm saying Nintendo will never replicate the DS , the highest selling handheld. I'm sure Nintendo could make a handheld that could replicate the succes of the original gameboy, the equivalent to the Wii to NES comparison.

It doesn't matter whether the question is NES or PS2. Additionally, the NES actually sets a lower bar for Nintendo success, but even that would have been answered with a resounding "no". That's the whole point: Current market conditions should not be taken for granted and seen as final in an entertainment industry.

 

You don't really mean that the handheld market isn't shrinking right? It's not like people will all of a sudden stop buying smartphones.



Yes. Those games sold 20 million. But you need to also think that those games, even Pokemon broke a lot new ground. With the touch/motion controls. And we didn't have all this other tech we got now. It was 2005. We were going OMG over wi-fi still. Even the DS cards where amazing to me back then. Nothing was that small and flat compared to the past cartrages. A console having a fully usable UI OS was epic. These things have become old hat. You lose the spark that drove those games. And now since majority went towards smart phones. They lost those people on top of that.



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RolStoppable said:
Teeqoz said:

You don't really mean that the handheld market isn't shrinking right? It's not like people will all of a sudden stop buying smartphones.

The current forecast is that the handheld market will continually shrink and ultimately has no future. People look at the 3DS and PSV, and predict that it's going to get worse for their successors (if they will be made at all) because all current sales data points to that. My point is that such a trajectory is not set in stone in a business that works with resets of installed bases. Everytime a company launches a next generation system, they start at 0 all over again. Therefore the perception that current handheld systems have (devices that are on their way out because they will be replaced by smartphones) may or may not be the same in the future.

Another example: The Xbox 360 did beat the PS3 in the USA by a significant margin, so many people expected that the Xbox One would beat the PS4. Their reasoning didn't go beyond "Xbox rules now, it's going to stay like that.", but the launch of these eighth generation systems was a reset, so the previous market conditions were rendered null and void. Not even a year has passed since the launch of these systems, but the way the market is viewed has changed dramatically already.

The handheld market is shrinking this generation, there is no doubt about it. But that can be reversed in the next generation.


I'm not saying it's completely impossible to beat the DS, I'm just saying that I don't think it's going to happen. I think the handheld market as a whole will decrease further next gen, until we meet a "bottom" where a certain amount of people just simply buy handhelds, and will keep on doing that regardless.



Pyro as Bill said:

This question basically comes down to.......

1. Can Nintendo make one or two 20M+ sellers a year for 5-10 years?

and

2. Is it possible to sell 20M on a dedicated handheld in the era of smartphones and tablets?

Many people might answer no to the second question. To those people I would ask...

3. Can Minecraft sell 20M on home consoles when everyone has a smartphone/tablet/PC/netbook/laptop that can easily play Minecraft?

If the answer to question 3 is yes, then the answer to q2 is yes. That leaves q1.

Can Nintendo get Nintendo-lucky again?

It's been pointed out many times that Nintendo wasn't lucky. Many choose to ignore the reasons even though Nintendo spent years screaming from the rooftops and explaining in detail how they planned to successfully disrupt the gaming industry. They even invited others to join them, and Ubisoft managed to successfully disrupt Activision in the music genre while Nintendo smashed EA's sports crown, without even trying.

So it all this boils down to not can but will.

Will Nintendo ever read the 'Innovators Dilemna' again? Will Iwata 2017 listen to Iwata 2007? Will Reggie '17 listen to Reggie '07 or is Candy Crush and Flappy Bird the best that normal people can ever expect to play on a £500 non-dedicated device?

Nintendo's only ever had two dominant consoles... the NES and Wii. So it's not like it happens all that often. I wouldn't expect it to happen again, but if it does, it wouldn't shock me.

Handhelds on the other hand, they have never lost on that front.



No they never will. The Wii and DS was their peak.



    

NNID: FrequentFlyer54

Using the same gimmick of appealing to casuals? No.

They are gone thanks to Apple/Android and only value games at free/99 cents now.

Via some other avenue though? I wouldn't count them out. No one expected Donkey Kong, Super Mario Bros., or Pokemon to be break out hits.

Nintendo may be in a slump but don't ever forget they are a home run hitter are capable of crushing a baseball if they get the right pitch. 

10 years ago it seemed impossible that Nintendo would ever see the NES/Game Boy peak ever again. 

My personal feeling is if Nintendo becomes more like LEGO/Disney, which are large conglomerate companies and gets into things like animation on top of games, someday perhaps they can branch out to the point where they can eclipse even the Wii/DS era, provided they hit paydirt with a big enough new IP (or two) that becomes a phenomenon like Pokemon or Mario. 



Sure, who would have predicted what was to come after the Gamecube gen.