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Forums - Sales Discussion - Did Anybody Else Notice That XB1 Erased That Gap The WiiU Build Up Form May -Aug In The Last 3 Weeks?

Vena said:
thismeintiel said:
Like I said in another thread, I'll wait to see how the holidays treat both consoles to make a final decision. However, I'm pretty much giving up hope that the Wii U will stay 2nd. Nintendo could have made it a decent battle for 2nd, but decided not to fight aggressively, which will most likely be their downfall. What they should have done was dropped the price to $249 when MK8 came out, with plenty of bundles for either the same price or $269-$279. They should have also made SSB Wii U take priority over the 3DS version, that way it would have released first and not be affected by the 3DS release. And finally, they should really be pushing for their games to get finished sooner, since they don't have the same 3rd party support in between exclusive releases.


A price-drop would have killed Nintendo, they can't keep losing money on the WiiU in vast quantities. Price drop may raise sales but at the cost of more money flushed down the drain (each sale costs money if you are selling at a loss). Nintendo isn't looking to sink billions into sales like Sony did with the PS3 on a salvage operation, that's a fools gambit and Nintendo doesn't have other divisions to cover such a thing. They will ride out the 10 million console backlog on the gamepad deal, and that's it. Whatever they sell after that they will sell at a profit and recoup as much losses as possible on the WiiU and software while streamlining their HD development and getting new developers trained with their Garage program. Cutting prices will only come once that backlog of consoles is cleared and/or the gamepad backlog is cleared through refurbs or replacements. Once the WiiU is at a comfortable profit margin on a sale, they will cut prices to spur on more software purchases of that has developed into the console's catalog, and try to repair as much of the loss as possible from the console.

And, no, 3DS >>>>>>>>>>>> WiiU for Smash priority. 45 million users vs. a struggling 7 million is an obvious choice, and we've seen the benefits of it already with over a million sold in two days. The returns on that are massive, and its free marketting for the WiiU HD version. The 3DS version coming out before or after is the same detriment in the end just that one way you get a huge sum of bonus handheld sales. It also gives the N3DS even more relevance with its controls, upgraded processing and memory capabilities, and general +s that can be exploited by Smash. It helps them make the N3DS look like a good upgrade, and will help curb market saturation by boosting sales on upgrades. The 3DS is profitable, is a leading platform, and the Vita is all but dead and abandoned by Sony and VitaTV is a flop and will flop. They have every reason to make their handheld as enticing and library packed as possible, WiiU be damned.

Nintendo could not push games out "sooner" even if they wanted, they got hit with the HD-development hurdle. These next couple of years before their fusion stuff hits the market will be a time of streamlining and learning to HD. If they do it right, they may whether the storm of imploding AAA development and be able to produce games at low budgets that still look fantastic and appeal to wide audiences without having to sink multi-tens of millions into nonsense.

Well, if Nintendo keeps thinking like that, they will never have another home console success.  And, I don't think there is another gaming gimmick like motion gaming that is going to come along that Nintendo can take advantage of.  As for your points:

Yes, Sony lost billions on recovering the PS brand after a rough start for the PS3.  Now, look at how they are benefitting from that.  The righted the ship and started making money off the PS3 about midway in.  Also, older gamers know what it means to own a PS console and the support it gets, and now, so do new gamers.  Many got a 360 last gen, but after seeing MS's bad policies, as well as them skimping on 1st party support late in the gen while Sony still supported the PS3, they are hopping over to the PS4.  Sorry, but Nintendo consoles have never appealed to many core gamers.  If we take out the Wii, their home consoles have declined each gen, and Wii U looks to possibly continue that trend when compared to the GC.  Also, Nintendo must not be selling at a profit, as they have been posting losses lately.  Sure, that will change soon enough if they continue to keep the price at $299, but at what cost?  Obscurity in the home console market?

Sure, Nintendo will make money off of Smash Bros 3DS, but that would have happened no matter when they released it.  The fact is, the 3DS is selling decently.  It doesn't need help as much as the Wii U does.  And exclusives are what is going to help the Wii U, not giving it late ports of 3DS games.  That's no different than thinking that late ports of PS3/PS4 games is going to help the Vita.  Fortunately for Vita, I see it following the same route as the PSP in Japan.  It will stay below the 3DS, but once devs start moving over to it (which looking at TGS, they are going to next year), it will probably start selling more than the 3DS (on a weekly basis) late in the gen.

And yea, they could push out games quicker.  Or more accurately, SHOULD be able to.  How long have they been working with the Wii U before it launched?  And how long have people been making console games in 720p?  It's also not like the Wii U HW is as complicated as something like the PS3's Cell, which caused problems for Sony early last gen.  To me, this comes off as complete imcompetence if they haven't been able to churn out more of the games that people are actually waiting for.  Especially considering they know they aren't getting great 3rd party support.  The way they talk, it seems like there is no one capable of pulling off what they want within their studios, so they all have to go to classes for a year or two to learn how to make HD games.  Personally, I think that is just a poor excuse and the truth is that their studios are more likely poorly organized messes.



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S.T.A.G.E. said:
CGI-Quality said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

No. MS is actually paranoid about coming second to Sony in any way shape or form which is why anytime you see Sony make a move MS responds.  When the 360 launched a year ahead did Sony respond? No. They waited until the hardware was ready. Phil Spencer might be a nice guy but Microsofts reasoning is not healthy at all. There is no spin, just accept the company as they are.

Microsoft insiders came out twice about Microsoft:

1. The old vice president about why Microsoft even joined the idustry.

2. The reason why the 360 was rushed while knowing the R&D wasn't complete to beat Sony a year ahead to market.

It was always because of Sony, never Nintendo and always because of either some competitiveness or vendetta for Sony not wanting to partner with them.


http://techreport.com/news/13974/microsoft-insider-xbox-360-was-rushed-to-market

Much agreed here. Even if that was still the case, Sony isn't losing billions to beat Xbox and are, currently, handily doing it. I only disagree with you regarding paranoia. I'm sure they know they will lose to Sony at this point (for a third time, mind you), but I believe being competitive, in general, is what they're after. 

The PS4 will remain #1. Not much else they can do to change that.

OT:  I actually hadn't noticed, but I think the systems will trade blows for a while, with the X1 taking a permanent lead by mid 2015.


I have no problem with competition. If it gets dirty i'm safe, thankfully because I own both consoles and need one more (Wii U). I've never not owned an either in any generation outside of Nintendo, so I think I am due.  MS is going to try their best to get back to Sony and their best doesnt come without screw jobs and acquisitions. 

Yea, and they proved that with the TR BS.  Of course, its not going to help them.  Especially, with TR launching next year.  And being a cross gen game.  Now, if it was this year and only on current gen systems, it may have hurt some.  The way it is now, I think they only one it's going to hurt is SE.  They basically just gave the finger to the fanbase that made them the most money.  We'll just have to see if the fans give it back.  I know I lost interest in it. 

Of course, like I have been saying, I truly think 2014 is going to be the last year we are going to see these BIG moneyhats this gen.  I'm sure they'll still occasionally spring for some timed-exclusive DLC and advertising, but other than that, I don't think so.  Not with how much they must be losing from all these deals with nothing to show for it in the end, other than the PS4 still winning in the numbers war, HW-wise and SW-wise.  I just don't think the investors would let them get away with it without recourse.



thismeintiel said:

Well, if Nintendo keeps thinking like that, they will never have another home console success.  And, I don't think there is another gaming gimmick like motion gaming that is going to come along that Nintendo can take advantage of.  As for your points:

Yes, Sony lost billions on recovering the PS brand after a rough start for the PS3.  Now, look at how they are benefitting from that.  The righted the ship and started making money off the PS3 about midway in.  Also, older gamers know what it means to own a PS console and the support it gets, and now, so do new gamers.  Many got a 360 last gen, but after seeing MS's bad policies, as well as them skimping on 1st party support late in the gen while Sony still supported the PS3, they are hopping over to the PS4.  Sorry, but Nintendo consoles have never appealed to many core gamers.  If we take out the Wii, their home consoles have declined each gen, and Wii U looks to possibly continue that trend when compared to the GC.  Also, Nintendo must not be selling at a profit, as they have been posting losses lately.  Sure, that will change soon enough if they continue to keep the price at $299, but at what cost?  Obscurity in the home console market?

Sure, Nintendo will make money off of Smash Bros 3DS, but that would have happened no matter when they released it.  The fact is, the 3DS is selling decently.  It doesn't need help as much as the Wii U does.  And exclusives are what is going to help the Wii U, not giving it late ports of 3DS games.  That's no different than thinking that late ports of PS3/PS4 games is going to help the Vita.  Fortunately for Vita, I see it following the same route as the PSP in Japan.  It will stay below the 3DS, but once devs start moving over to it (which looking at TGS, they are going to next year), it will probably start selling more than the 3DS (on a weekly basis) late in the gen.

And yea, they could push out games quicker.  Or more accurately, SHOULD be able to.  How long have they been working with the Wii U before it launched?  And how long have people been making console games in 720p?  It's also not like the Wii U HW is as complicated as something like the PS3's Cell, which caused problems for Sony early last gen.  To me, this comes off as complete imcompetence if they haven't been able to churn out more of the games that people are actually waiting for.  Especially considering they know they aren't getting great 3rd party support.  The way they talk, it seems like there is no one capable of pulling off what they want within their studios, so they all have to go to classes for a year or two to learn how to make HD games.  Personally, I think that is just a poor excuse and the truth is that their studios are more likely poorly organized messes.


Sony is a financially unstable company, I wouldn't look at them for much of anything except for a step-by-step guideline on how to systematically destroy a company. Even if the PS brand is doing overall well, the company as a whole is a crapshoot.

And never did I say that Nintendo appealed to core gamers (on the home console, they obviously have the handheld market cornered), so I am not sure what reason you have to apologizing to me for a thing I never said. The console has an appeal to different folks but, in general, I'd say the WiiU's audience is the hardest to pin down. The general and simplest umbrella to put them under is fans of their IP and games which, as fate would have it, have been reliably good products to purchase and support. But that's a small number of people all in all. Moreover, as I said, Nintendo cannot simply bleed money like Sony did, Nintendo has no aspirations to be a financial disaster ala Sony. They will sell out the stock of WiiU's they have first and foremost at a minimum loss, and then they will cut prices. The market is already made and there's no reason for them to try and claw their way into a relevancy which could lead to company insolvency. You can't sell a console at close to a hundred dollars-lost per sale and expect to survive on software sales returns unless you expect unreasonably high attach rates... which is unreasonable. Sony bled about 200$ per console on the PS3, all in all leading to them losing several billion dollars in the long run to salvage the console and the brand.

The WiiU is not in a situation that can be helped. The 3DS, on the other hand, is in a situation that can be improved and has good footing. You do not help the dead, you help the healthy but sick. There was every reason to get the 3DS Smash version out in time for the N3DS, and there was every reason to get the N3DS out as market saturation was becoming a real thing. WiiU took a back seat to the needs of the 3DS. And who knows, the 3DS Smash could serve as good advertising for the WiiU version.

...The Vita will sell more than the 3DS, I hope you're joking? The Vita is a dead platform, has no first party titles anymore (now made concretely obvious by Sony with TGS), and has only limited niche developers supporting it. The N3DS will likely, alone, outsell the thing in a year or two. Every big name brand and title is on the 3DS: Pokemon, Yokai, Smash, Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, SMT and DSurvivor, Tales, Bravely Default/SqueeNix, and all of Nintendo's reliable and strong selling first party developers. The Vita will not achieve anything even remotely close to the PSP, and Sony has officially abandoned the system. The only time the Vita will outsell the 3DS is when the 3DS is discontinued for its successor.

As for the last paragraph, Nintendo hit very obvious and very well documented development delays and cost issues (from their usual) with the transition to HD. They've said so themselves, and that sort of hurdle isn't something you get over in a few months, this is something that takes a re-evaluating of approaches and restructuring development pipelines and expectations... Not to mention that Nintendo has been supporting two consoles with development... something no other developer has or can even remotely do.

...You think Nintendo's first party developers and things like EAD are unorganized messes? What?



Vena said:

thismeintiel said:

Well, if Nintendo keeps thinking like that, they will never have another home console success.  And, I don't think there is another gaming gimmick like motion gaming that is going to come along that Nintendo can take advantage of.  As for your points:

Yes, Sony lost billions on recovering the PS brand after a rough start for the PS3.  Now, look at how they are benefitting from that.  The righted the ship and started making money off the PS3 about midway in.  Also, older gamers know what it means to own a PS console and the support it gets, and now, so do new gamers.  Many got a 360 last gen, but after seeing MS's bad policies, as well as them skimping on 1st party support late in the gen while Sony still supported the PS3, they are hopping over to the PS4.  Sorry, but Nintendo consoles have never appealed to many core gamers.  If we take out the Wii, their home consoles have declined each gen, and Wii U looks to possibly continue that trend when compared to the GC.  Also, Nintendo must not be selling at a profit, as they have been posting losses lately.  Sure, that will change soon enough if they continue to keep the price at $299, but at what cost?  Obscurity in the home console market?

Sure, Nintendo will make money off of Smash Bros 3DS, but that would have happened no matter when they released it.  The fact is, the 3DS is selling decently.  It doesn't need help as much as the Wii U does.  And exclusives are what is going to help the Wii U, not giving it late ports of 3DS games.  That's no different than thinking that late ports of PS3/PS4 games is going to help the Vita.  Fortunately for Vita, I see it following the same route as the PSP in Japan.  It will stay below the 3DS, but once devs start moving over to it (which looking at TGS, they are going to next year), it will probably start selling more than the 3DS (on a weekly basis) late in the gen.

And yea, they could push out games quicker.  Or more accurately, SHOULD be able to.  How long have they been working with the Wii U before it launched?  And how long have people been making console games in 720p?  It's also not like the Wii U HW is as complicated as something like the PS3's Cell, which caused problems for Sony early last gen.  To me, this comes off as complete imcompetence if they haven't been able to churn out more of the games that people are actually waiting for.  Especially considering they know they aren't getting great 3rd party support.  The way they talk, it seems like there is no one capable of pulling off what they want within their studios, so they all have to go to classes for a year or two to learn how to make HD games.  Personally, I think that is just a poor excuse and the truth is that their studios are more likely poorly organized messes.


Sony is a financially unstable company, I wouldn't look at them for much of anything except for a step-by-step guideline on how to systematically destroy a company. Even if the PS brand is doing overall well, the company as a whole is a crapshoot.

And never did I say that Nintendo appealed to core gamers (on the home console, they obviously have the handheld market cornered), so I am not sure what reason you have to apologizing to me for a thing I never said. The console has an appeal to different folks but, in general, I'd say the WiiU's audience is the hardest to pin down. The general and simplest umbrella to put them under is fans of their IP and games which, as fate would have it, have been reliably good products to purchase and support. But that's a small number of people all in all. Moreover, as I said, Nintendo cannot simply bleed money like Sony did, Nintendo has no aspirations to be a financial disaster ala Sony. They will sell out the stock of WiiU's they have first and foremost at a minimum loss, and then they will cut prices. The market is already made and there's no reason for them to try and claw their way into a relevancy which could lead to company insolvency. You can't sell a console at close to a hundred dollars-lost per sale and expect to survive on software sales returns unless you expect unreasonably high attach rates... which is unreasonable. Sony bled about 200$ per console on the PS3, all in all leading to them losing several billion dollars in the long run to salvage the console and the brand.

The WiiU is not in a situation that can be helped. The 3DS, on the other hand, is in a situation that can be improved and has good footing. You do not help the dead, you help the healthy but sick. There was every reason to get the 3DS Smash version out in time for the N3DS, and there was every reason to get the N3DS out as market saturation was becoming a real thing. WiiU took a back seat to the needs of the 3DS. And who knows, the 3DS Smash could serve as good advertising for the WiiU version.

...The Vita will sell more than the 3DS, I hope you're joking? The Vita is a dead platform, has no first party titles anymore (now made concretely obvious by Sony with TGS), and has only limited niche developers supporting it. The N3DS will likely, alone, outsell the thing in a year or two. Every big name brand and title is on the 3DS: Pokemon, Yokai, Smash, Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, SMT and DSurvivor, Tales, Bravely Default/SqueeNix, and all of Nintendo's reliable and strong selling first party developers. The Vita will not achieve anything even remotely close to the PSP, and Sony has officially abandoned the system. The only time the Vita will outsell the 3DS is when the 3DS is discontinued for its successor.

As for the last paragraph, Nintendo hit very obvious and very well documented development delays and cost issues (from their usual) with the transition to HD. They've said so themselves, and that sort of hurdle isn't something you get over in a few months, this is something that takes a re-evaluating of approaches and restructuring development pipelines and expectations... Not to mention that Nintendo has been supporting two consoles with development... something no other developer has or can even remotely do.

...You think Nintendo's first party developers and things like EAD are unorganized messes? What?


The Wii U is in a situation that could've been helped. Have a better relationship with third parties. A massive portion of audiences to consoles buy third party and Nintendo because of their bad relationships have trained their community not to depend on them for third party.

Sony was naturally adept at being naturally dominant in the industry by having full use and harmony of all parties involved. Their relationships for the most part were squeaky clean.



S.T.A.G.E. said:

The Wii U is in a situation that could've been helped. Have a better relationship with third parties. A massive portion of audiences to consoles buy third party and Nintendo because of their bad relationships have trained their community not to depend on them for third party.

Sony was naturally adept at being naturally dominant in the industry by having full use and harmony of all parties involved. Their relationships for the most part were squeaky clean.


I don't disagree, but that time for helping was a year ago. Not now, when Smash released.

What Nintendo can do now is not chase third party and the unsustainable AAA market, that's a lost cause for this gen at the very least, what they should do is chase and form good channels with "third party" indies and market them. They exist, they make good games, and they can produce hits like Shovel Knight.



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Vena said:


I don't disagree, but that time for helping was a year ago. Not now, when Smash released.

What Nintendo can do now is not chase third party and the unsustainable AAA market, that's a lost cause for this gen at the very least, what they should do is chase and form good channels with "third party" indies and market them. They exist, they make good games, and they can produce hits like Shovel Knight.


Nintendo tried to chase third party but it was little too late because they created a less than powerful console when in 2011 devs were saying consoles need to be "This powerful" and Nintendo still launched the Wii U. Nintendo only does what they want to do and dont think about anything outside of themselves. This is why Nintendo hasnt had a decently populated console with a variety of gamers since the SNES and even then Nintendo had third parties under their thumb still not listening, but at least they were the market leader and were technilogically capable for their time.  Epic doesnt even want Nintendo using Unreal 4 because Nintendo trying to use it for "next gen" titles is a joke. Sounds like a douche right? Well he's right. They could always use Unreal 4 but whats the point if no one is consuming third party on your platform and Unreal 4 is mostly consumed by companies that make multiplats?