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Forums - Politics Discussion - Why do "some" religious groups not accept Same Sex relations, but have no problems with Inter- racial relations?

 


Forgive me if i ask for a citation rather than take your word for it.

How would I citate a source? I don't think there are polls or studies on this. Just go to seedy places in Manila or Cebu for proof.



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The_Sony_Girl1 said:

 


Forgive me if i ask for a citation rather than take your word for it.

How would I citate a source? I don't think there are polls or studies on this. Just go to seedy places in Manila or Cebu for proof.

This then just sounds, forgive me, like a homophobic urban myth.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Jereel Hunter said:

Context is everything! Many of the laws were given for a very specific period of time. (i.e. hygiene laws that were in effect during time periods when there was no knowledge of germs, quarantine laws when there was no knowledge of how diseases spread) 

Now for something like slavery, you need to realize that slavery in ancient Israel was NOT the same as slavery today. It's basically a different definition. Slavery, as it was practiced in US history, for instance, would never have flown in Bible times. The fact that we choose to use the same word to describe a different scenario is on us. 

First of all slavery in ancient Israel was something you sold yourself in to, to pay debts, and was essentially a long term work contract. You would not be kidnapped and forced to work.

Second, in ancient Israel, there was a periodic "Jubilee year" in which all slaves were freed and land reverted back to its original families. This meant that noone was born into slavery, and noone had to die in slavery. Slavery back then was essentially the situation people in heavy debt find themselves in today: they have to work to pay their debts, not able to accumulate anything. The difference being that within their lifetime, they would be freed and have land once again, guaranteed. 

If someone beat their slave to death, they'd be put to death too, because slaves were people, not property, and it would be murder.

Likewise, when it talked about the nation of Israel's wars, and sometimes they would be commanded to purge almost everyone. Sounds pretty heartless, right? But how are you judging this?

Look for a moment, at the Middle East, some individuals have been fighting, and full of hatred for generations and generations. Millions have died. Countless people grow up hating those in the next country, and conflicts with no end in sight continue. Boys see their fathers die, grow up angry, and when they are old enough, have more children who they will teach to hate. Is this somehow better than killing a few thousand people? Objectively, it's so, so much worse. But we don't have the benefit of being about to see the horrible effects of a war ripple through time. God does. Did the Israelites purge every nation in the land of Canaan? No. Were they always ordered to kill everyone? No. We see a story that looks bad on the surface, not considering the endless generations of conflict that could have been the result under different circumstances. But there's more to the story: When we have no faith, death is the ultimate 'bad outcome', and this story is merely a tale of bloodshed. In the context of a loving creator giving these orders, however, we know that 1) the commands were given for the best outcome in the long run 2) In the prophecied ressurection, the creator has the ability to bring back anyone killed in these purges that didn't deserve it. 

There is no "different type of slavery". That's the typical justification. The definition of slavery is "one person owning another person as property". That's what happened in those biblical stories: people owning other people. That is wrong, no matter how you spin it. If it was considered anything else, regarding paying debts, work contracts, etc. it would be considered a job at best, and indentured servitude at worst. But no, it says you can take on slaves. And only Jewish slaves were allowed to be released, after 7 years (this may be what you're referring to, in paying off debts). If your slave was from another nation, you got to keep that man permanently. And pass him down to your kids if you die. (Leviticus 25: 44-46, so yea, they are property). And it's just your "fellow Israelite" that you're not supposed to treat badly.  Slaves from other nations though? Not so good. Yea, if you kill your slave, you get get killed as punishment as well.....but you're allowed to beat your slave as long as they survive a day or two days after the beating (Exodus 21: 20-21). So, don't make it seem like they were treated well.  Oh, one more: if you allow your slave to marry (while enslaved), and she has kids....you get to keep the kids and wife as slaves, as well. This verse pertains to Hebrew slaves. If that man, who now has a family, doesn't want to give up his family after that 6 years of work.....welp, he gets a piercing to notify that he is a permanent slave (Exodus 21: 2-6) and he serves the master forever. What part of that has anything to do with repaying debts? "Jubilee year"? Well slaves that happen to love their family won't be able to partake in that, because they are permanent slaves for the crime of loving his wife and kids.

And are you really trying to justify genocide? Because of what might happen?



spurgeonryan said:
Jereel Hunter said:
QuintonMcLeod said:

I whole-heartedly agree with this.

I was actually going to reply with something similar to this, but someone beat me to it.

I've noticed a lot of atheists tend to base reglion from the people who follow it instead of what the religion actually promotes. From there, they formulate their own conclusions, and this is very sad. We're living in a world where ignorance is encouraged.

Mmmhmmm this is absolutely true. Jesus teaches loving your enemy, and PEOPLE preach hate, and others blame 'religion'. That's like blaming "science" for so much death because it has been used to make weapons, ignoring the fact that most scientists are working to better the world. 

I am a lutheran. But the rest of my family is like I guess Evengelical Christians? They just go to the church with the best band or something.

For me I feel that as Christians we cannot judge people I will not turn you away no matter what. I am not God. I do not hate anyone, and I can only hope that other Christians can show the world that this is what it is actually supposed to be like. But there are plenty who will judge you. I am not married, but live with my GF for five years. Her sister is a judger. Just kind of an attitude, nothing really bad though. But that is the thing, what is it to her? What does she even know?

How can anyone come to God, when they are not accepted by the religious community anyways?

I think the fear is though, and I some what preach this to my kids. Just not in this way, I do not say you cannot be gay or anything like that. But I tell them, it is fine to get a tatoo! Go ahead, but just know, that it leads you down a path. People will look at you differently. Smoke a cigarrette, but then what happens when you are addicted? Or when you need a bigger high? OR when your body collapses because you did not take care of it like God said?

What happens when you hang around with the wrong people? You can hang around with anyone and get in trouble, but if you are hanging around with the village trouble maker, do you have a better chance of getting in trouble than not?

If you are a Christian you need to know your own values, limits, etc. But does that mean you just block people out? Does that mean you force your message down their throats? I do not think so.

People can do what they want. Does not mean I am going to be. I can tell them whatever it is that my bible says. Does that mean they are going to hell? I am not god! I do not know. Does that mean I cannot love them or enjoy their company?

Christians are like little children and this is not to be said in a bad way. They are so worried they are not going to be rewarded or get their ice cream ( Go to Heaven) than they are blinded to reality. If you believe in Satan, then you know that it is mostly his doing. Everything is so confusing in this day and age. But that is how it has always been. Since the apple or whatever you believe in happened, Sin and confusion has been in the world. We ate from the tree of knowledge, but what is true knowledge? Everyone thinks something different, which pushes everyone in every which way it can be pushed.

 

Acceptance and love is the best gift anyone can be given. Hate and unnacceptance is never the answer.

 

Sorry if anything I said offended anyone.


You make an excellent point!

Consequences are what you're teaching your children, and it's a very smart approach! Everything we do leads to a consequence. 

As far as judging people - I also agree with you. The way I look at it is, how do I compare to the vastness of the universe? Realizing how insignificant I am to even many of my immediate surroundings just lets me know that I am nothing - let alone "someone" in the position to judge another person based on superfical reasons as their race, gender, religion, creed and ideals. Realizing how I'm not much different than the next man, I just do not feel I have the right to treat anyone else differently than I'd treat anyone else - and that's as a human being.



Shackkobe said:

Your race is part of you, sacred and shouldn't be violated by anyone. It is a reflection of how God created you. 

 

Your sexuality is also sacred. It is an expression of your love to your husband/wife, where children come forth and a place where the basic foundations of society are laid. God designed sexuality to be an expression of a male to a female and vice versa.

 

From the christian standpoint, homosexuality is an aberration of sexuality. God clearly states that it is not the way he intends it to be. I understand that many people are very sensitive about this issue, but unfortunately we live in a society that promotes lies to the people who need the truth.

 

We have been led to believe hat homosexual relations are equal and as natural as heterosexual relationships despite the HUGE mountain of evidence to the contrary.

 

Why do you have a sex drive?

 

Is the purpose not to draw you to the opposite sex?

 

Isn't the natural result of our sex drive (if everything is allowed to be happen as it should) a pregnant woman?

 

What is surprising is that we struggle to understand and accept the three simple sentences that I wrote above...and that is sad. 

 

The fact that we struggle to understand the truth, is because we have believed a lie. Take your time, don't get mad at me. See if what I'm saying makes sense before you react. Ask yourself: "Is homosexuality the way it should be?" and honestly answer that question. After you do, you will understand why christians are against it.

 

Of course this issue is too deep for a simple post to cover, but I can only hope that I have brought the voice of reason to this forum. 


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D0nNiPBCm94     Carries mom disagrees at 3:40... Your point is invalid. 



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BMaker11 said:

There is no "different type of slavery". That's the typical justification. The definition of slavery is "one person owning another person as property". That's what happened in those biblical stories: people owning other people. That is wrong, no matter how you spin it. If it was considered anything else, regarding paying debts, work contracts, etc. it would be considered a job at best, and indentured servitude at worst. But no, it says you can take on slaves. And only Jewish slaves were allowed to be released, after 7 years (this may be what you're referring to, in paying off debts). If your slave was from another nation, you got to keep that man permanently. And pass him down to your kids if you die. (Leviticus 25: 44-46, so yea, they are property). And it's just your "fellow Israelite" that you're not supposed to treat badly.  Slaves from other nations though? Not so good. Yea, if you kill your slave, you get get killed as punishment as well.....but you're allowed to beat your slave as long as they survive a day or two days after the beating (Exodus 21: 20-21). So, don't make it seem like they were treated well.  Oh, one more: if you allow your slave to marry (while enslaved), and she has kids....you get to keep the kids and wife as slaves, as well. This verse pertains to Hebrew slaves. If that man, who now has a family, doesn't want to give up his family after that 6 years of work.....welp, he gets a piercing to notify that he is a permanent slave (Exodus 21: 2-6) and he serves the master forever. What part of that has anything to do with repaying debts? "Jubilee year"? Well slaves that happen to love their family won't be able to partake in that, because they are permanent slaves for the crime of loving his wife and kids.

And are you really trying to justify genocide? Because of what might happen?

Our definition of slavery is owning another person. Their definition was selling themselves for an agreed upon time, or the next jubilee year. (indentured servitude would be our modern equivalent. Claiming there is no difference because we, 3500 years later, have a different definition of slave doesn't change the original terms)
Looking at the verses immediately following those you quoted in Leviticus, it mentions the slave having the chance to buy back their freedom. Leviticus 25: 47-54 are about the various ways slaves can be released, either themselves, or by family, and that includes, in verse 49 "‘Or if he himself has become wealthy, he may also buy himself back." This means slaves were allowed to have their own assets, and earn their own money, and potentially being able to buy their own freedom was included in the law. Slavery, as it is viewed today, slaves have no assets, if they made any money it would automatically go to their owners. 

As for a slave having a wife and kids, they were ALL to be released every 7th year. It's not like only the males were set free. Under circumstances where the times were disparate between how long they were bound under their agreement, one could choose to remain with their master permanently. Again, however, this wasn't the kind of slavery we see from earlier in this country's history. It was a situation many people found favorable, as all Israelites who became slaves did so voluntarily. And that's what it has to do with repaying debts. All Israelites has an inheritance of land which they could cultivate to survive - or sell. If they were forced to sell themselves into slavery, it was likely due to debts they accrued, somehow. (Unless it was simply a more favorable working arrangement) Unlike slaves of today, it being voluntary, they had the opportunity to sell themselves to someone they know treated their slaves well.

As for being allowed to beat your slaves as long as they didn't die for a day or two - this was only regarding being immediately avenged. There were still laws regarding murder, which DID still apply to slaves, and they would still be punished under those laws. If the slave hung on for a few days before dying, maybe the family of the slave was no longer permitted to avenge them, but they were still held accountable to the law.

As for genocide, I'm not trying to justify it based on what MIGHT happen. We are talking about a divine authority, therefore to put the decisions in context, they were made with a foreknowledge of exactly what WOULD happen. How many decisions in war time become very different when you can actually know the ripples they will cause, through the future? And this is assuming you completely ignore God's being able to resurrect those killed.



Soriku said:
LivingMetal said:
spurgeonryan said:

Supposedly, God was so mad that humans became so smart and full of themselves when they were building this Tower called Babel, that he dispersed the population all over the world. Different languages, races, etc. From what I remember in Bible Studies...


"Full of themselves" is a key phrase you just coined for this thread.  From what I understand, it was more of an issue of pride than "race."  And as we all know whether you believe in God or not, God cannot be reached by building a tall tower.  So the people of the time thought they could be as great as God, and one reason why was by trying to physically reach him which they were all wrong to begin with.  So when God confounded the languages, it halted production.  And nowhere in the Bible has God denied "interracial" relations just because of physical differences.


It's never explicitly stated in the story that they intended to be as great as God; merely that they wanted to build a tower that reached to the heavens (which at the time, also meant space) and make a name for themselves.

Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth." - Genesis 11:3

God then gives a terrible reason for his disapproval, that had nothing to do with them intending to be as great as him.

But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other. - Genesis 11:5

He confuses them because he doesn't them to work together and accomplish lots of things...which is a bad reason, why? For all of human history, people have cooperated, and people continue to cooperate, even amongst those with different languages. If we didn't, we'd be much worse off. Is this what God intended? Either way this punishment seems largely ineffective in the long run. That and I think God is being too generous by saying "nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them". Although, keeping everyone in one place seems like a bad idea due to a lack of resources...but this may also have been God's plan with the Garden of Eden, so eh.

It's safe to assume that the people of the past (including those who wrote the story, and God by extension) didn't know this, but what would have been a damning lesson for the Babylonians would be the knowledge that there's no possible way they would have reached the heavens (space), since they had no technology to allow them to breath in high altitudes. They would've given up on their own; no god required. So again, I'm not so sure about "nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them", God...


Actual your interpretation can be... interpreted to condone God as a means of protection as you have impied and not punishment.  Good show, man.