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Forums - Politics Discussion - Where did the Big Bang Come from?

ninjaman003 said:

Hundreds of years ago, yes the church would be opposed to the idea. Thousands of years ago( that has to be at least 2000) people had no proof or even a reason to believe the earth traveled around the sun. The "church" back then did not really mean religion. It was honestly more of a way to control people. They came to illogical conclusions that can't be found anywhere in the Bible. I agree that science should search for knowledge,but science is really about proving things to be true. This can be and usually is a search for knowledge. According to that logic, the periodic table is not science because we already know about it, only the undiscovered elements are science.

I answered underlined question with underlined answer.

So you agree that God was the solution the church saw, and we later proved that other factors were behind?

The first thing I learned in astronomy was to never accept anything as true, how hard the evidence may be. We have some set definitions, like what wavelength different colors have, definitions in mathematics and so on, but when  it comes to our empirical hunt for knowledge, we cannot decide that some things are true, or even accept them as truths.

Ofcourse the periodic table is part of science, we still learn alot from the elements we have already found and we can never rule out that we might find new knowledge, therefore it will always be part of science.

And if you read what I wrote one more time, I never objected to God in any way. I said there is no need for a god to prove the things we have found with scientific method. This does not mean I rule out god, it just means it is one of the least likely explanations for things such as the Big Bang, since science has proven to be able to explain averything else without a god. And if we have had no need for a god factor for any of our scientific discoveres, w would we use the least likely factor in explaining the origin of everything?



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CommonNinja said:

Which begs the question "how did so much Uranium get here through fusion?"  It is simply hard to believe that fusion could have created each and every element on the periodic table, and then some how a star exploded all of thoese elements onto earth.

Also, if the earth really is billions of years old, wouldn't most of the uranium that came from the supernovas alreay have decayed into Thorium?

Uranium has a half life of about 4 Billion years, which means around the time when the first lifeform was first forming, there would have had to have been at least twice the amount of Uranium on earth as there is today.  Thats a lot of Uranium, especially if you believe it all came from fusion!


"how did so much Uranium get here through fusion?"

I can't possibly know that, but my best guess is that earth just happened to be born close to where a supernovae had happened before.

"wouldn't most of the uranium that came from the supernovas alreay have decayed into Thorium?" / "would have had to have been at least twice the amount of Uranium on earth as there is today." Yes there was approxematley twice the amount, and yes that mostly decayed to thorium, but with thorium (Th234 the isotope that comes out of a U238 decay) having a half life of mere 24days (compared to the 4.5 billion years of U238) that has decayed just shortly after the uranium which produced it.



@OP

Most of your questions are valid, in some degree, from a scientific point of view. As you can see from the replies, some scientific theories can give you answers with more or less uncertainity.

The questions about what happened before the origin of the universe are very controversial in science because, at the current state of art, you can't answer them without a high degree of uncertainity.

However, all scientific theories work like this at the begining. When you collect more evidence to support your theory, the less uncertainity and the more it becomes accepted by the scientific community.

The reason why some scientists reject the hypothesis of God is in not because they are gnostic atheists, it's because this hypothesis lacks evidence from a scientific point of view.

If you assume a previously selected answer to be correct when all answers fail to meet scientific criteria (including your selected answer), you are commiting a confirmation bias. If you want to prove that the universe was created by God, you don't need to prove that all the other alternative hypothesis are wrong, since this will never prove that your hypothesis is correct, you just need to prove that your hypothesis is right. 

The answer I would give to your questions is that we (humanity) don't know for sure, but some people are coming up with some interesting hypothesis supported by evidence.

If you want to belive in God just because it seems like the more reasonable hypothesis for you, that's fine. Science is not about searching for an ultimate truth, it's about searching for an explanation that is coherent with the evidence using the little information that we can gather.

Ps: It's normal to think that scientists just make things up when you don't know all the theoric framework and evidence that support their affirmations. In most cases, it's a good thing to be skeptic even to science. Just don't be a lazy skeptic who calls bs to everything you don't understand.



I know... my english sucks

thats the million dollar question ryan..
and your not gonna get a satisfing reply in this lifetime



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

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smakz said:
MTZehvor said:
VanceIX said:
Mystro-Sama said:

Most Atheists i've spoken to dropped the smartass attitude after that question. Not to mention that they can't seem to answer the question of how an existence without consciousness can create an existence with consciousness.

But in that case, who created the conciousness that created the conciouss existence? 

There wouldn't need to be anyone; if a being exists outside of the universe, it is not bound by the laws that exist within this universe, such as time (and, by extension, the need to have a beginning). 

The same is true of anything, not just a "being". If a rock exists outside the universe, it is not bound by the laws that exist within this universe, such as time.

Certainly.



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Shadow1980 said:
CommonNinja said:


Not exactly the case, Uranium is one of the highest elements found on the Periodic table, and yet it is just as commonly found around the planit as Tin or Zinc.  

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Uranium-Resources/Supply-of-Uranium/

Which begs the question "how did so much Uranium get here through fusion?"  It is simply hard to believe that fusion could have created each and every element on the periodic table, and then some how a star exploded all of thoese elements onto earth.

Also, if the earth really is billions of years old, wouldn't most of the uranium that came from the supernovas alreay have decayed into Thorium?

Uranium has a half life of about 4 Billion years, which means around the time when the first lifeform was first forming, there would have had to have been at least twice the amount of Uranium on earth as there is today.  Thats a lot of Uranium, especially if you believe it all came from fusion!


Uranium is formed in supernovae, not by standard stellar fusion. Stars can only fuse up to iron, so it takes a bit more than that to fuse iron into other elements. See here for more information.

Since the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, and since the half-life of uranium-238 (the most common isotope of uranium and one of the primordial nuclides) is 4.47 billion years, then about half of the Earth's original allotment of U-238 has decayed into lead. Of the amount that remains, about half will decay in another 4.47 billion years. Uranium-lead dating is one of the oldest and most refined method of radiometric dating, and sample after sample after sample has repeatedly confirmed that the Earth is about 4.6 billion years old.

Whether or not you find it hard to believe is irrelevant. Just because something is hard to believe or sounds counterintuitive doesn't mean its not true. We know enough about physics to understand things like half-lives and to know that radiometric dating is quire reliable.

But you do have to admit that there are holes in the theory.

Each year the earth is getting farther and farther away from the sun.  3.6B years ago when the first lifeform suposidly formed, earth would have been much closer to the sun, and too hot to sustain any life. 

Likewise, earth's rotational spin is slowing down, which means that it must have been faster years ago.  If you do the math back to 3.6B years ago, earth would have been spinning so rapidly that we would have day and night change within seven hours, and it would have increased the magnetic field of earth by astronomical perportions (which in turn would make earths climate much hotter, and unsustainable to life).

Also, the moon is getting further away form the earth which means that 3.6 B years ago, it would have hovered mere miles above our atmosphere, and caused massive tidle waves.  Of coarse scientist don't believe we have had our moon forever, but that is another discussion.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17228-why-is-the-earth-moving-away-from-the-sun.html#.VATJjfldWzM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_rotation

These are just a few example of problems with the theory, there are more that I just don't have time to add right now.



CommonNinja said:

But you do have to admit that there are holes in the theory.

Each year the earth is getting farther and farther away from the sun.  3.6B years ago when the first lifeform suposidly formed, earth would have been much closer to the sun, and too hot to sustain any life. 

Likewise, earth's rotational spin is slowing down, which means that it must have been faster years ago.  If you do the math back to 3.6B years ago, earth would have been spinning so rapidly that we would have day and night change within seven hours, and it would have increased the magnetic field of earth by astronomical perportions (which in turn would make earths climate much hotter, and unsustainable to life).

Also, the moon is getting further away form the earth which means that 3.6 B years ago, it would have hovered mere miles above our atmosphere, and caused massive tidle waves.  Of coarse scientist don't believe we have had our moon forever, but that is another discussion.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17228-why-is-the-earth-moving-away-from-the-sun.html#.VATJjfldWzM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_rotation

These are just a few example of problems with the theory, there are more that I just don't have time to add right now.


Of course there are holes in the theory, why do you think there is research? Because we do not have a unified complete theory that can describe everything yet!

I'm not going to research into those claims, your last ones were already false, but even if those claims are true, what does it prove? 

What is the point you want to show? No one claims to know the answer to every secret in the universe, that's why humans do research! How is this giving any contribution to the question whether there's a god or not? 

Just stating what is clear anyway (that not everything can be explained yet) is in no way a valid hint towards some religous belief. I really don't get what you are trying to say by this.



MTZehvor said:
smakz said:
MTZehvor said:
VanceIX said:
Mystro-Sama said:

Most Atheists i've spoken to dropped the smartass attitude after that question. Not to mention that they can't seem to answer the question of how an existence without consciousness can create an existence with consciousness.

But in that case, who created the conciousness that created the conciouss existence? 

There wouldn't need to be anyone; if a being exists outside of the universe, it is not bound by the laws that exist within this universe, such as time (and, by extension, the need to have a beginning). 

The same is true of anything, not just a "being". If a rock exists outside the universe, it is not bound by the laws that exist within this universe, such as time.

Certainly.


Therefore, if we are going to postulate extra-unviversial entities and assign them human-like characteristics of "intention" towards "creation" (ie, in as much as fire "intended to create" ash), the next logical conclusion is that it is more likely the universe was "created" by a rock, seeing as how there are several orders of magnitudes more rocks in the universe than there are humans. Seems pretty case closed to me. The big bang came form a random rock. Any more questions or can we close up the thread? 



Soundwave said:
I understand where religion came from though ...

People need to have an answer to where we came from, where our place in the universe is, and what happens after death.

We needed an answer and thousands of religions/folk stories over time filled the gap and brought great comfort to people.

I get it. There is a need for it.

I don't think it works like that. When your average Joe hears "Most people will be tormented in Hell. You probably wil, too.", that's not going to comfort them.



insert obligatory your mom joke here