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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Microsoft admits to dodging $29B in taxes. Yes, billion with a B.

mornelithe on 22 August 2014
sc94597 said:
overman1 said:

The US is also the most populous out of all those countries. You can combine the student population of 5 of those countries and it might equal to that of the US. Finland has a very prominent public educational system that takes very good care of its teachers and for this it is #1 world wide. Like I said before, I havve nothing against Charter school. But because of this, we do not allow the public school system to go to dust. Charter school is a luxury now in this economy. 

Again, look at the spending per student statistic. That has nothing to do with population. 

Here's the problem though, where is that money actually going?  As of 2012-013 there were 3,108,500 teachers, with an average salary of $56,103 (75K in New York on the high end, 39K in South Dakota on the low end), which works out to $174,396,175,500.  Out of over $800bn in spending, doesn't that number seem low to you?  Clearly we have the money to spend on education, so if we can fix the goddamn system maybe we can not only lower spending but increase the efficacy of the program itself.

http://www.nea.org/home/rankings-and-estimates-2013-2014.html



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thx1139 on 22 August 2014
overman1 said:
thx1139 said:
overman1 said:
Baalzamon said:
overman1 said:

For who exactly?

Definitely not the middle class...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/sunday-review/americas-productivity-climbs-but-wages-stagnate.html?_r=0

I don't know about you, but I make an average wage, and invest a significant amount of my money in the stock market. When those companies are making more money because they aren't paying taxes, my investments are growing faster. When I sell these investments, I pay my fair share to Uncle Sam (and rightfully so).

Good for you but not every American has that previldge and a lot of them are there by cicumstance and are just as hardworking as you can be. I am an unmarried US Navy trained Nuke Engineer with a bachelors degree. I will consider myself vey fortunate to be making the kind of money I make because I know alot of my friends who are just as educated as I am and still need a second sometimes third jobs to keep themselves and family afloat. 

And your value to society cant be measured by how much money you make.  Because teachers get paid less then an electrical engineer mean they add less value to society? Is a nurse less valuable to society then a stock broker? Is a social worker worth less to society then a computer programmer?

Sadly enough, in the US right now they are considered to be. Lets not even get into the idea of the educational system that is extremely flawed. Despite being one of the most important jobs, the teaching profession is not very prestigous or valued; teachers are severely underpaid and many state goverments are taking funding from school. The rich who are able to influence decision through the lobbying they do, are enrolling their own kids in Charter school. Now I have absolutely nothing with Charter school but when the public school system is rotting and there is no incentive for improvement why should the education matter again?

My take on the whole charter school and vouchers for schools are they are really just away for people who dont want either a secular education or dont want money to both public schools through taxes while they send thier kids to private schools.  This way they get money back from the taxes they pay or they can choose a school that doesnt teach that evil stuff like evolution.



Its libraries that sell systems not a single game.

sc94597 on 22 August 2014
Zackasaurus-rex said:

sc94597 said:

 Of course Wall Street does, it is by its very nature corporatist, and it supports corporatism (the merger of corporations and states.) Wall-street continues to support legislators and regulators who support corporatism in opposition to free-markets. 

 

"Corporatism" is the natural evolution of capitalism whenever there is a state. It is a market advantage to use the state, and it is a political advantage to use the markets.

 

Fascism (and thus the creation of an exceptionally bad state) is the natural evolution of capitalism without a state. Anarchy and private hierarchy are incompatible. 

 

The fallacy that the "free market" can exist in a bubble outside of politics needs to be laid to rest. If you want to preserve the neoclassical status quo, you first need to acknowledge that fact, so that serious legislative, constitutional, and cultural changes can be considered.

Your definition of fascism seems off. Fascism cannot exist without a state, because it is defined by a totalitarian state. And fascism has nothing to do with capitalism, but rather much to do with the syndicalism which opposed capitalism in the early 20th century, often tethered with populist rhetoric. Corporatism is just syndicalism that doesn't oppose the traditional marxist definition of "capitalism" but more-so free-market economies (which most socialists supported in the 19th century - because most socialists were mutualists not marxists.) 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory)



sc94597 on 22 August 2014
mornelithe said:
sc94597 said:
overman1 said:

The US is also the most populous out of all those countries. You can combine the student population of 5 of those countries and it might equal to that of the US. Finland has a very prominent public educational system that takes very good care of its teachers and for this it is #1 world wide. Like I said before, I havve nothing against Charter school. But because of this, we do not allow the public school system to go to dust. Charter school is a luxury now in this economy. 

Again, look at the spending per student statistic. That has nothing to do with population. 

Here's the problem though, where is that money actually going?  As of 2012-013 there were 3,108,500 teachers, with an average salary of $56,103 (75K in New York on the high end, 39K in South Dakota on the low end), which works out to $174,396,175,500.  Out of over $800bn in spending, doesn't that number seem low to you?  Clearly we have the money to spend on education, so if we can fix the goddamn system maybe we can not only lower spending but increase the efficacy of the program itself.

http://www.nea.org/home/rankings-and-estimates-2013-2014.html

That was my argument. The problem in the U.S isn't spending, especially when more is spent per student than in any other country. 



sc94597 on 22 August 2014
thx1139 said:
overman1 said:
thx1139 said:
overman1 said:
Baalzamon said:
overman1 said:

For who exactly?

Definitely not the middle class...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/sunday-review/americas-productivity-climbs-but-wages-stagnate.html?_r=0

I don't know about you, but I make an average wage, and invest a significant amount of my money in the stock market. When those companies are making more money because they aren't paying taxes, my investments are growing faster. When I sell these investments, I pay my fair share to Uncle Sam (and rightfully so).

Good for you but not every American has that previldge and a lot of them are there by cicumstance and are just as hardworking as you can be. I am an unmarried US Navy trained Nuke Engineer with a bachelors degree. I will consider myself vey fortunate to be making the kind of money I make because I know alot of my friends who are just as educated as I am and still need a second sometimes third jobs to keep themselves and family afloat. 

And your value to society cant be measured by how much money you make.  Because teachers get paid less then an electrical engineer mean they add less value to society? Is a nurse less valuable to society then a stock broker? Is a social worker worth less to society then a computer programmer?

Sadly enough, in the US right now they are considered to be. Lets not even get into the idea of the educational system that is extremely flawed. Despite being one of the most important jobs, the teaching profession is not very prestigous or valued; teachers are severely underpaid and many state goverments are taking funding from school. The rich who are able to influence decision through the lobbying they do, are enrolling their own kids in Charter school. Now I have absolutely nothing with Charter school but when the public school system is rotting and there is no incentive for improvement why should the education matter again?

My take on the whole charter school and vouchers for schools are they are really just away for people who dont want either a secular education or dont want money to both public schools through taxes while they send thier kids to private schools.  This way they get money back from the taxes they pay or they can choose a school that doesnt teach that evil stuff like evolution.

The myth is that they are paying to educate their children. Why can't they educate their children how they wish? Oh yeah, school isn't about education it is about state indoctrination. 



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thx1139 on 22 August 2014
overman1 said:
sc94597 said:
overman1 said:

Sadly enough, in the US right now they are considered to be. Lets not even get into the idea of the ducational system that is extremely flawed. Despite being one of the most important jobs, the teaching profession is not very pristigous or valued; teachers are severely underpaid and many goverements are taking funding from school. The rich who are able to influence decision through the lobbying they do are enrolling their own kids in Charter school. Now I have absolutely nothing with Charter school but when the public school system is rotting and there is no instentive for improvement why should the education matter again?

Why is it that the U.S spends more on average per student than most other first-world countries, yet produces some of the worst results? Oh yeah, the education system is too public. Compare, say, the U.S to Hong Kong or Japan. The issue isn't costs, but the system itself. Private schools and charter schools are a breath of fresh air for not only those who can afford them out of pocket, but the poor students whose education is subsidized (and costs reduced let me add.) 

The US is also the most populous out of all those countries. You can combine the student population of 5 of those countries and it might equal to that of the US. Finland has a very prominent public educational system that takes very good care of its teachers and for this it is #1 world wide. Like I said before, I havve nothing against Charter school. But because of this, we do not allow the public school system to go to dust. Charter school is a luxury now in this economy. 

Recently I listened to a talk about a recent study and it came down to this. All poor scores are all about poverty. Was something like in districts with 80 or 90% of children 150% or more above the poverty level the US leads the world in scores.  It is children in poverty that bring the scores down.  Most of the rest of the 1st world have much stronger social safety nets and because of this poor children dont perform well at all in the US.



Its libraries that sell systems not a single game.

Baalzamon on 22 August 2014
thx1139 said:

But you can also avoid that. I for instance have a 2% LOC against my investments so I can gain access to the gains without actually selling the stock.  When I pass away if I leave stock to my kids the capital gains on that stock is erased.  The kids if they sell the stock immediatly are accessed gains at the price the stock was at when I left it to them. Not what I paid for them. So for instance I bought Apple at like $50 before the split. I bought MS at like $20. I can just hold those stocks and they gain gain gain. Say I drop dead. My kids get the Apple stock which is now roughly a $650 per share gain.  My kids wouldnt pay tax on the $650 they would pay no tax if they sold it as soon as they got it.  See how the game is rigged for the aristocracy. Hold your capital gains, get a low interest loan to access the value and leave to your heirs basically tax free.  

Oh believe me, I know there are tons of perfectly legal ways to avoid paying tax. But the situation you described is limited to the estate exclusion anyways, after which they would be paying a 35% estate tax (as well as additional state estate taxes, if your state has them, like mine does).

Besides that, there are numerous reasons to not use a LOC against investments.

A) It is risky, as your investments could dramatically decrease in value in a short time span

B) The purpose of me saving, and working to pay off huge things as fast as possible is so I don't have to deal with debt anymore. I could probably make loads more in the market investing than I would pay for interest on a home, too, but I would much rather pay the home off quickly and get it out of my way and get rid of the stress associated with it.

If you like a life riddled with debt and the stress associated for it just to avoid a measley 15% LTCG tax rate, then all the power to you, though.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

sc94597 on 22 August 2014
thx1139 said:

Recently I listened to a talk about a recent study and it came down to this. All poor scores are all about poverty. Was something like in districts with 80 or 90% of children 150% or more above the poverty level the US leads the world in scores.  It is children in poverty that bring the scores down.  Most of the rest of the 1st world have much stronger social safety nets and because of this poor children dont perform well at all in the US.

If we are to speak of absolute poverty and not relative poverty, the United States does not have many more poor people (as a percentage) than a lot of these countries that succeed it, even if we speak of social safety nets. I really don't see how poverty can be the major determing factor when education is mostly socialized in the U.S. One can argue that less of an emphasis is put on education by poor parents and neighborrs, but that is a cultural quality, and certainly not something that can be fixed by more spending or social safety net. The only solution to that is greater economic prosperity that emphasizes the role of self-improvement and education, and which motivates these poor parents and neighbors to influence students toward better education. 



AgentZorn on 22 August 2014
mornelithe said:

Here's the problem though, where is that money actually going?  As of 2012-013 there were 3,108,500 teachers, with an average salary of $56,103 (75K in New York on the high end, 39K in South Dakota on the low end), which works out to $174,396,175,500.  Out of over $800bn in spending, doesn't that number seem low to you?  Clearly we have the money to spend on education, so if we can fix the goddamn system maybe we can not only lower spending but increase the efficacy of the program itself.

http://www.nea.org/home/rankings-and-estimates-2013-2014.html


San Jose State University, the university i currently go to, is going through a budget crisis. Tuition is increasing, classes are being cut, theres not enough teachers etc. However, the university seems to have enough money in order to make a new student health center, expand the sport comlex, and remodeling. A few years back there was a bit of a scandel were the head of a department used school money to remodel his mansion.

We really need to rework the education system, but sadly many people don't get off their asses and fix the problem.



Imaginedvl on 22 August 2014

lol another Daredevil "great" linked bad article about Microsoft...
EVERY companies does that, including Sony and others.

So why is this a worthy news?