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What do you think really happened in Ferguson?

Forums - Politics Discussion - What do you think really happened in Ferguson?

MegaManX said:

Firstly, no he did rob the store, it was a $50 box of cigars, but that value of the item does not matter.  The video confirms it was him, he clearly is not joking around with the owner by pushing him back and he is clearly intimidating him before walking out of the store.  I don't know why you are bothering to dispute a video of the incident, we know it happened so let's move on.  The cop not knowing about the incident doesn't matter because the friend admitted they were illegally walking down the street, so the cop had cause to address MB.  

And like you say, he assaulted the cop, probably grabbed the gun, injured the officers eye socket so we know he was assaulted by MB.  Even if he ran, the cop has to give chase, you do realize that right?  He has just committed several felonies at that point so the cop has even more cause to arrest MB, and as you say if MB confronted the officer than he was resisting arrest.  You are making the case for me here.  He assaulted the cop, ran, cop gave chase, we don't know exactly what happened but as you say if he rushed the cop, what do you think is going to happened, if MB grabs the gun what do you think will happen to the cop?  So like you say he fires to subdue him, the first 4 shots hit him in the right arm.  Then like I say, how does a big guy with adrenaline flowing react to 4 shots in a few seconds, does that instantly subdue him or does he not feel the bullets and keeps charging or does feel it and slumps over into another bullet that wasn't aimed for his head?

And really come on, you think he should have let the suspect go and got back in his car, and done what?  Wait for a cop, he pursued the suspect like every other cop every other time who is physically able to does, you say he should have tazed him, do you know if that is standard gear for cops in Ferguson, do you know how they work and how much time he had when they caught up to each other to use it if he had it and keep himself alive.  You would think the sight of the gun and the cop telling you to freeze and get down would be smart enough to listen, but I guess for you, a cop has to always use non lethal means even if the circumstances may not give the cop enough time to react?

Again like I said maybe he did rob the store(well did) BUT that had NOTHING do do with the shooting at all none the less. And I never said he did not have reason to address Brown because they were indeed illegally walking down the street. Also the cop being injured I still have my questions about because he left the scene of the crime before hand and that info somehow was not giving until almost a week later but all that was said is that there was an "altercation" in the cops car and the part about Brown rushing him was already released. So if the story really went as the cop said why did he leave the scence before hand? Why not wait for backup and the paramedics to arrive and get checked right then and there?   So again the question remains how did the altercation begin? How did Brown end up  inside the police car through a window to where he was "supposedly" reaching for the cops gun in the first place? And yes when shots are fired the cop is supposed to call in for back up IMMEDIATELY. The cop KNEW he shot Brown so he knew that Brown was already injured. And yes in Ferguson the police have tazers and pepper spray standard I live in the area. The "pursuit" didn't even leave the street they were on not even a block or two.

Whenever shots are fired a cop is supposed to ALWAYS call for back up. Yet this officer did not and he was not shot at he was the one that did the shooting. And yes if the office feared for his life the way he said then he would not have began pursuit in the first place he would again called for back up or called for back up THEN began pursuit.. And yeah for me agetting down and  freezing would be natural and smart. And Brown was indeed facing the officer when shot but that does not mean he was rushing him. If the officer had time to pursue a wounded suspect, time to tell him to freeze and all fo that then yes he had time to do something outside of shooting him.

But this is all just speculation on both our parts. I do not want you to think I am just defending on side because the cop could very well be telling the truth about what happened or maybe some facts are incoorect on both sides. But what remains for me is that the actions of the cop led to the loss of a life and the cop could have done thing sdifferently. Can't chng ewhat has alredy happened but it seems things were done the incorrect way in this matter and the loss of a life is never a good thing.



The absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence...

PSN: StlUzumaki23

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TheBlackNaruto said:
MegaManX said:
 

Firstly, no he did rob the store, it was a $50 box of cigars, but that value of the item does not matter.  The video confirms it was him, he clearly is not joking around with the owner by pushing him back and he is clearly intimidating him before walking out of the store.  I don't know why you are bothering to dispute a video of the incident, we know it happened so let's move on.  The cop not knowing about the incident doesn't matter because the friend admitted they were illegally walking down the street, so the cop had cause to address MB.  

And like you say, he assaulted the cop, probably grabbed the gun, injured the officers eye socket so we know he was assaulted by MB.  Even if he ran, the cop has to give chase, you do realize that right?  He has just committed several felonies at that point so the cop has even more cause to arrest MB, and as you say if MB confronted the officer than he was resisting arrest.  You are making the case for me here.  He assaulted the cop, ran, cop gave chase, we don't know exactly what happened but as you say if he rushed the cop, what do you think is going to happened, if MB grabs the gun what do you think will happen to the cop?  So like you say he fires to subdue him, the first 4 shots hit him in the right arm.  Then like I say, how does a big guy with adrenaline flowing react to 4 shots in a few seconds, does that instantly subdue him or does he not feel the bullets and keeps charging or does feel it and slumps over into another bullet that wasn't aimed for his head?

And really come on, you think he should have let the suspect go and got back in his car, and done what?  Wait for a cop, he pursued the suspect like every other cop every other time who is physically able to does, you say he should have tazed him, do you know if that is standard gear for cops in Ferguson, do you know how they work and how much time he had when they caught up to each other to use it if he had it and keep himself alive.  You would think the sight of the gun and the cop telling you to freeze and get down would be smart enough to listen, but I guess for you, a cop has to always use non lethal means even if the circumstances may not give the cop enough time to react?

Again like I said maybe he did rob the store(well did) BUT that had NOTHING do do with the shooting at all none the less. And I never said he did not have reason to address Brown because they were indeed illegally walking down the street. Also the cop being injured I still have my questions about because he left the scene of the crime before hand and that info somehow was not giving until almost a week later but all that was said is that there was an "altercation" in the cops car and the part about Brown rushing him was already released. So if the story really went as the cop said why did he leave the scence before hand? Why not wait for backup and the paramedics to arrive and get checked right then and there?   So again the question remains how did the altercation begin? How did Brown end up  inside the police car through a window to where he was "supposedly" reaching for the cops gun in the first place? And yes when shots are fired the cop is supposed to call in for back up IMMEDIATELY. The cop KNEW he shot Brown so he knew that Brown was already injured. And yes in Ferguson the police have tazers and pepper spray standard I live in the area. The "pursuit" didn't even leave the street they were on not even a block or two.

Whenever shots are fired a cop is supposed to ALWAYS call for back up. Yet this officer did not and he was not shot at he was the one that did the shooting. And yes if the office feared for his life the way he said then he would not have began pursuit in the first place he would again called for back up or called for back up THEN began pursuit.. And yeah for me agetting down and  freezing would be natural and smart. And Brown was indeed facing the officer when shot but that does not mean he was rushing him. If the officer had time to pursue a wounded suspect, time to tell him to freeze and all fo that then yes he had time to do something outside of shooting him.

But this is all just speculation on both our parts. I do not want you to think I am just defending on side because the cop could very well be telling the truth about what happened or maybe some facts are incoorect on both sides. But what remains for me is that the actions of the cop led to the loss of a life and the cop could have done thing sdifferently. Can't chng ewhat has alredy happened but it seems things were done the incorrect way in this matter and the loss of a life is never a good thing.

I understand, I think to many people assume an unarmed man, even a 6'4 300 pound unarmed man, poses a laughable threat to a cop.  MB was a big guy, if the officer was within an arms reach of him, than literally anything can happen, a gun can be wrestled, a choke hold could be put on the cop, we know MB friend lied about what happened but he could have been a threat to the cop as well, you only have an advantage with a gun when a threat is several arm lenghts away.  

And like you said, we don't know what happened at the critical point, but we do know that MB had done things leading up to this and we probably will never know exactly what happened and who was at fault.  Therefore the riots and all that BS it totally unwarranted as all the facts haven't come out yet, we haven't even heard the officers side of the story, and the rioting only hurts the people of Ferguson, many businesses will leave, taxes will go up to pay for all the manpower and the town will have reputation for a long time.  

But a few on here think that cops should only unholster their gun when they are getting shot at.  And that's stupid, just the sight of a gun drawn on your should seperate the smart from the foolish, and we can't say whether MB was rushing the cop or not, but the evidence contradicts the friend so I feel like if it were unjustified that friend and the evidence so far would support that the cop acted unethically.



MegaManX said:

I understand, I think to many people assume an unarmed man, even a 6'4 300 pound unarmed man, poses a laughable threat to a cop.  MB was a big guy, if the officer was within an arms reach of him, than literally anything can happen, a gun can be wrestled, a choke hold could be put on the cop, we know MB friend lied about what happened but he could have been a threat to the cop as well, you only have an advantage with a gun when a threat is several arm lenghts away.  

And like you said, we don't know what happened at the critical point, but we do know that MB had done things leading up to this and we probably will never know exactly what happened and who was at fault.  Therefore the riots and all that BS it totally unwarranted as all the facts haven't come out yet, we haven't even heard the officers side of the story, and the rioting only hurts the people of Ferguson, many businesses will leave, taxes will go up to pay for all the manpower and the town will have reputation for a long time.  

But a few on here think that cops should only unholster their gun when they are getting shot at.  And that's stupid, just the sight of a gun drawn on your should seperate the smart from the foolish, and we can't say whether MB was rushing the cop or not, but the evidence contradicts the friend so I feel like if it were unjustified that friend and the evidence so far would support that the cop acted unethically.

Yeah it is a sad situation all around. The looting and rioting has be sick and upset with the community. My son can't even start school yet because of all the mess that is going on. It is a very tense and frustrating time/situation here and now. I am all for the peaceful protesting for the right cause. But some people are not out there for any other cause other than their own personal agendas tot ake advantage of a hoirrible situation to steal, rob and go at it with cops.......sad times.



The absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence...

PSN: StlUzumaki23

MegaManX said:

Micheal Brown was walking down the middle of the street when the confrontation started, he had just robbed a store and was not being discreet.  It's probably, but we don't know fully since even the friend has been discredited, that MB may not have taken lightly to being confronted by a cop even if it's a simple command since you can't walk down a street like that.  You say the cop feared an ass whippin like it should just be part of the job, a cop has responsibilities, they don't want to deal with hostile people, and if he assaulted the cop or tried to grab his gun then he has commited multiple felonies and is now a very real threat especially with a guy his size.  Cops have to deal with a lot of shit people, you won't last long as a cop if you think you can take out every person with just your fists, I think you don't understand what cops have to deal with or how quickly you can find yourself in a life or death circumstance.  You may not like cops, but the friend even admitted they were walking down the middle of the street and he just robbed a store!  So clearly he was not being harassed because he was black, the guy clearly thought highly of himself and knew his size would intimidate people.  I think he got aggressive with the cop and the cop had to do it, we all know how to behave around cops, if you have to take some shit especially as in this case where it was warranted then so be it, anybody that assaults a cop is asking for it.  

In regards to the 6 shots, I guess you have never been in a life threatening circumstance, nor have I, but I can imagine if a big guy is coming at you and already tried to grab your gun, that you might fire off several shots.  You also don't realize that he wasn't a still target, most shots hit him in the arm, he's a big guy, the adreneline is flowing, you may not feel it right away, in a literal matter of seconds a lot happens and the reactions aren't instant.  Or he did and as the cop fired off, he reacted to it and fell into the other shots, you make it sound like he was 20 feet away and unmoving throughout the whole process.  If he was charging the cop, clearly he moving, perhaps bent over and who knows how he will react, you can aim for one part of the body and even if you have great accuracy, you can't take into account whether a wound will make them fall or lean into a shot making a nonlethal one lethal.


You guess wrong, I have been shot at by police. They were aiming for my head and I was unarmed. Bullets whizzed by really close to my ear, it felt like i was slapped in the ear. I thought I was hit, they emptied out their clips and reloaded twice. Several cars and houses got hit, 14th district police were sued by half my block. 

I have seen way too much abuse of power by police to give them the benefit of the doubt. I am not defending Brown, I don't know all the facts and more is being released as we speak:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

 

He may have feared for his life, my assumption may have been wrong. It seemed to me at first  that the cop just lost his cool after feeling like he was disrespected. If he put his hands on the cop like that, he should have known what was coming next. Brown obviously wasn't new to the streets.

Growing up on the west side of Chicago I've seen a lot of dirty cops. I've been held for three days and beat while handcuffed to a pole on the wall. I don't trust police for shit. They deal with a lot of shit, sure. But they deal out a lot of shit too. That knife cuts both ways, and that's why people are losing respect for police.



MegaManX said:
TheBlackNaruto said:
MegaManX said:
 

Firstly, no he did rob the store, it was a $50 box of cigars, but that value of the item does not matter.  The video confirms it was him, he clearly is not joking around with the owner by pushing him back and he is clearly intimidating him before walking out of the store.  I don't know why you are bothering to dispute a video of the incident, we know it happened so let's move on.  The cop not knowing about the incident doesn't matter because the friend admitted they were illegally walking down the street, so the cop had cause to address MB.  

And like you say, he assaulted the cop, probably grabbed the gun, injured the officers eye socket so we know he was assaulted by MB.  Even if he ran, the cop has to give chase, you do realize that right?  He has just committed several felonies at that point so the cop has even more cause to arrest MB, and as you say if MB confronted the officer than he was resisting arrest.  You are making the case for me here.  He assaulted the cop, ran, cop gave chase, we don't know exactly what happened but as you say if he rushed the cop, what do you think is going to happened, if MB grabs the gun what do you think will happen to the cop?  So like you say he fires to subdue him, the first 4 shots hit him in the right arm.  Then like I say, how does a big guy with adrenaline flowing react to 4 shots in a few seconds, does that instantly subdue him or does he not feel the bullets and keeps charging or does feel it and slumps over into another bullet that wasn't aimed for his head?

And really come on, you think he should have let the suspect go and got back in his car, and done what?  Wait for a cop, he pursued the suspect like every other cop every other time who is physically able to does, you say he should have tazed him, do you know if that is standard gear for cops in Ferguson, do you know how they work and how much time he had when they caught up to each other to use it if he had it and keep himself alive.  You would think the sight of the gun and the cop telling you to freeze and get down would be smart enough to listen, but I guess for you, a cop has to always use non lethal means even if the circumstances may not give the cop enough time to react?

Again like I said maybe he did rob the store(well did) BUT that had NOTHING do do with the shooting at all none the less. And I never said he did not have reason to address Brown because they were indeed illegally walking down the street. Also the cop being injured I still have my questions about because he left the scene of the crime before hand and that info somehow was not giving until almost a week later but all that was said is that there was an "altercation" in the cops car and the part about Brown rushing him was already released. So if the story really went as the cop said why did he leave the scence before hand? Why not wait for backup and the paramedics to arrive and get checked right then and there?   So again the question remains how did the altercation begin? How did Brown end up  inside the police car through a window to where he was "supposedly" reaching for the cops gun in the first place? And yes when shots are fired the cop is supposed to call in for back up IMMEDIATELY. The cop KNEW he shot Brown so he knew that Brown was already injured. And yes in Ferguson the police have tazers and pepper spray standard I live in the area. The "pursuit" didn't even leave the street they were on not even a block or two.

Whenever shots are fired a cop is supposed to ALWAYS call for back up. Yet this officer did not and he was not shot at he was the one that did the shooting. And yes if the office feared for his life the way he said then he would not have began pursuit in the first place he would again called for back up or called for back up THEN began pursuit.. And yeah for me agetting down and  freezing would be natural and smart. And Brown was indeed facing the officer when shot but that does not mean he was rushing him. If the officer had time to pursue a wounded suspect, time to tell him to freeze and all fo that then yes he had time to do something outside of shooting him.

But this is all just speculation on both our parts. I do not want you to think I am just defending on side because the cop could very well be telling the truth about what happened or maybe some facts are incoorect on both sides. But what remains for me is that the actions of the cop led to the loss of a life and the cop could have done thing sdifferently. Can't chng ewhat has alredy happened but it seems things were done the incorrect way in this matter and the loss of a life is never a good thing.

I understand, I think to many people assume an unarmed man, even a 6'4 300 pound unarmed man, poses a laughable threat to a cop.  MB was a big guy, if the officer was within an arms reach of him, than literally anything can happen, a gun can be wrestled, a choke hold could be put on the cop, we know MB friend lied about what happened but he could have been a threat to the cop as well, you only have an advantage with a gun when a threat is several arm lenghts away.  

And like you said, we don't know what happened at the critical point, but we do know that MB had done things leading up to this and we probably will never know exactly what happened and who was at fault.  Therefore the riots and all that BS it totally unwarranted as all the facts haven't come out yet, we haven't even heard the officers side of the story, and the rioting only hurts the people of Ferguson, many businesses will leave, taxes will go up to pay for all the manpower and the town will have reputation for a long time.  

But a few on here think that cops should only unholster their gun when they are getting shot at.  And that's stupid, just the sight of a gun drawn on your should seperate the smart from the foolish, and we can't say whether MB was rushing the cop or not, but the evidence contradicts the friend so I feel like if it were unjustified that friend and the evidence so far would support that the cop acted unethically.

The Ferguson police chief said that the reason the officer stopped MB had nothing to do with the store robbery and that at the time the cop that stop MB was unaware that MB was a suspect in any crime at the time of the shooting. the police chief said that he stopped MB and his friend because they were walking in the middle of the street.cops kill people all the time their the biggest gang in the word and their gang color is blue. sorry crips



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Its amazing that no one cares about the shop keeper;

1. He was intimidated and robbed; probably not for the first time.
2. He was brave enough to confront the goon and assaulted as a result.
3. He then contacted the police like a responsible citizen instead of chasing the goon with a shotgun.

Result: His shop gets burned down by "peaceful protesters", so hes lost the business for which he worked so hard after being robbed and assaulted

My questions are these:

1. Why does the govt not protect this honest tax payer?
2. Why does the public feel no sympathy for him?
3. Why would anyone open a business there? (It seems there was wanton looting all over the place)

And why does everything in America become about race all the time, to me its just criminal activity, how does it matter what colour the robber and the cop are...



siddhartha87 said:
Its amazing that no one cares about the shop keeper;

1. He was intimidated and robbed; probably not for the first time.
2. He was brave enough to confront the goon and assaulted as a result.
3. He then contacted the police like a responsible citizen instead of chasing the goon with a shotgun.

Result: His shop gets burned down by "peaceful protesters", so hes lost the business for which he worked so hard after being robbed and assaulted

My questions are these:

1. Why does the govt not protect this honest tax payer?
2. Why does the public feel no sympathy for him?
3. Why would anyone open a business there? (It seems there was wanton looting all over the place)

And why does everything in America become about race all the time, to me its just criminal activity, how does it matter what colour the robber and the cop are...

Actually the shop owner didn't call in a robbery at all.....his lawyer already stated that.



The absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence...

PSN: StlUzumaki23

TheBlackNaruto said:
siddhartha87 said:
Its amazing that no one cares about the shop keeper;

1. He was intimidated and robbed; probably not for the first time.
2. He was brave enough to confront the goon and assaulted as a result.
3. He then contacted the police like a responsible citizen instead of chasing the goon with a shotgun.

Result: His shop gets burned down by "peaceful protesters", so hes lost the business for which he worked so hard after being robbed and assaulted

My questions are these:

1. Why does the govt not protect this honest tax payer?
2. Why does the public feel no sympathy for him?
3. Why would anyone open a business there? (It seems there was wanton looting all over the place)

And why does everything in America become about race all the time, to me its just criminal activity, how does it matter what colour the robber and the cop are...

Actually the shop owner didn't call in a robbery at all.....his lawyer already stated that.

Oh my bad :(   

Still the rest of my point stands. I was reading case law on US police shootings and it seems that the prosecution would have to prove that there was no danger from the policemans perspective in order to prove the shooting was foul, that would be crazy hard.

One observation from an indian perspective is that US policemen seem to exceptionally well armed. Apperently the gear is from the US-Afghan war. Indian state police and even Central Reserve Police Force which fights hardcore seperatist and left wing insurgencies dont use gear like that.

But on the other hand arson is a red line in India and riot police would've opened fire with live ammo, Missouri policemen have shown a lot restraint.



BeElite said:
cannonballZ said:
No matter what Brown may have done, the cop was wrong shooting him 6 times.

Why couldn't he just wound Brown?

Brown was unarmed, no need for 6 shots if you were trained to shoot. The cop should be tried for homicide.


Cops are not trained to shoot to wound.  And they are trained to waste their clip if threatened to enusre their safty.  

Thsi is not hollywood, where the nice cop shoots a dude in the arm and all is well.  

Tasers and pepper spray exist for a reason. 



The cop thought "George Zimmerman" can get away with it, so can I.