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Forums - General Discussion - The Religious Argument Thread!

Nintentacle said:
vivster said:
Athesits don't need to prove anything!

Also lol.

Well, they do need to prove that God doesn't exist.


I'm sure others have already pointed this out but that's not how things work. You have to prove god exists, nobody has to prove that it doesn't. Just as you don't have to prove that there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster because the burden of proof is on those that make the claim. Therefore, god doesn't exist until you prove it does. I myself am an atheist because it is the most logical.



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You guys realise this conversation will never end right? >_>



Here's my 2 cents:

Does God Exist?

Let's look at this question from another perspective:

Pretend God exists as well as heaven.

So, say we're all dead and wind up in heaven.

What would we do there?
Could we watch porn? Play violent video games?
Could we have sex, do drugs, listen to rock 'n roll?
Could we get into fights, use curse words, give someone we hate the finger?

What exactly would be do in our afterlives in heaven?
Do we just sit around talking politely and singing religious songs?
What rules would we have to follow?

I don't know about you, but I for one wouldn't want to be someone's slave in heaven. I love the freedom I enjoy on the planet Earth.

For instance, I could go outside right now and shoot someone if I wanted - what's stopping me? Not God, but the laws created by man, and the man-made justice system that would hunt me down and prosecute me.

Still, at least I have the freedom to do anything I want, when I want.

I cannot see heaven enabling me to be as free as I am on the Earth, thus, it would be a dysfunctional place - people would revolt.

In closing, God does not exist and there cannot be a heaven. No one would like it. Who wants to be someone's slave? It's better that we just die and go to sleep eternally. When you are sleeping you feel no pain, no sadness, no unhappiness. Time just flies by until you wake up. Subtract the waking up part and that is what death is all about.



Nighthawk117 said:
Here's my 2 cents:

Does God Exist?

Let's look at this question from another perspective:

Pretend God exists as well as heaven.

So, say we're all dead and wind up in heaven.

What would we do there?
Could we watch porn? Play violent video games?
Could we have sex, do drugs, listen to rock 'n roll?
Could we get into fights, use curse words, give someone we hate the finger?

What exactly would be do in our afterlives in heaven?
Do we just sit around talking politely and singing religious songs?
What rules would we have to follow?

I don't know about you, but I for one wouldn't want to be someone's slave in heaven. I love the freedom I enjoy on the planet Earth.

For instance, I could go outside right now and shoot someone if I wanted - what's stopping me? Not God, but the laws created by man, and the man-made justice system that would hunt me down and prosecute me.

Still, at least I have the freedom to do anything I want, when I want.

I cannot see heaven enabling me to be as free as I am on the Earth, thus, it would be a dysfunctional place - people would revolt.

In closing, God does not exist and there cannot be a heaven. No one would like it. Who wants to be someone's slave? It's better that we just die and go to sleep eternally. When you are sleeping you feel no pain, no sadness, no unhappiness. Time just flies by until you wake up. Subtract the waking up part and that is what death is all about.

Most people wind up in hell (Matthew 7:13-14). You can't base your opinion on if everyone went to Heaven, because it says few (Probably still in the millions/billions area, but Hell would outnumber it by a lot) actually go to Heaven

People that are addicted to porn, sex (In some cases), and/or drugs when they die probably won't go to Heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9)

It would be considered retrictions for the people that end up in Heaven, it would be "Now I can live eternity with ever doing those things again, along with peace.". They aren't slaves because they willingly do it.

In other words:

The people that think of Heaven (A place of eternal peace), resticting won't go there in the first place, because they want to live in a sinful lifestyle.



bouzane said:
Nintentacle said:
vivster said:
Athesits don't need to prove anything!

Also lol.

Well, they do need to prove that God doesn't exist.


I'm sure others have already pointed this out but that's not how things work. You have to prove god exists, nobody has to prove that it doesn't. Just as you don't have to prove that there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster because the burden of proof is on those that make the claim. Therefore, god doesn't exist until you prove it does. I myself am an atheist because it is the most logical.

There is burden of proof on both sides; No piece of evidence can indefinitely prove that God does or doesn't exist.

Although, I don't understand the Big Bang, it doesn't make sense to me. How can nothing, at all, exist, and the Big Bang happen? Because if something existed before the Universe, than that was a part of the Universe, because the Universe contains everything that existed. Wouldn't it make more sense to say the Universe always existed (In the sense of time), and the Earth, Sun, Moon, etc. were formed over the course of billions of years? That's what I would say if I were an atheist.



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Soriku said:
Nintentacle said:

1. It still does not prove that there wasn't a point in time where there wasn't one language, unless you can find any document of sorts.

2. It isn't the issue of faith. It's just that you don't believe in it, so you say those people have mental disorders. That doesn't provide any evidence on your side, it just reinstates your opinion.

3. You can still, technically, do ev il in Heaven, but anyone that would do evil (I.E.: Someone who isn't saved) isn't allowed in Heaven in the first place. And, like I said before, you can't be tempted in Heaven. So, basically, the wicked people that would do evil, despite not having the tempation (Along with people who still live in their sin/haven't been forgiven for their sins at the time of their death as well) won't be in Heaven.

If you didn't understand that, what I mean is that you misunderstood the context behind "Not letting them do evil means they don't have free will." because I worded it wrong. What I meant was "It is technically possible to do evil anywhere, but there is no evil in Heaven because no one there would do evil.".


1. Wikipedia has a lot to say on this, but there's no consensus on the origin on langauge. That said, the Tower of Babel story is about the diversification of languages, but as you can see from the charts I posted, all languages didn't form spontaneuously. You can see that Germanic alone was different depending on if you lived in the East, North, or West. It's not as if these Germanic languages all formed at once at the same place and event; but they had the same origin.

2. First you say it isn't an issue of faith, and then say it's just you don't believe in it. Well then it is an issue of faith. Again, you can probably claim similar things in any religion where people there will also claim revelations. I mean they have to be getting something out of their religion. It's not as if there's documentation that Christianity provides more results than any other religion. Don't you find that curious? Except most religions are incompatible, so what do you think is the likely explanation? It's likely all in their heads. Even assuming that some people don't really have disorders, when people really want to believe something, they're going to have episodes of confirmation bias where something they believe is a message actually isn't.

3. I'd argue even the most good people are able to do something that maybe isn't so good from time to time. It's just human. And when you're living for an eternity, how likely is it that you'll never do anything morally gray or black at some point? Or anyone else, considering how many people are supposed to be in heaven? It's not going to be that smooth unless god makes it impossible to do certain actions, but that involves interfering with free will. Anyway it's a nice fantasy but nothing more.

1. Still, assuming there is a God, that doesn't mean he could do that, and that there wasn't ever one langauge. Couldn't I say that when God changed everyone's language, everyone went their way and each of their bloodlines had different languages, and in those bloodlines, people's dialects created new langauges, which would make both of our answers correct?

2. Then, wouldn't there also be a bias in not believing the "signs" as well? For example, if a Christian person looked at a few clouds that spellped "Jesus", they are going to say it is a sign God is real. If an Atheist looked at the same thing, they would call it a coincedence. Who is bias in that case? The Christian, because they saw the "Jesus" is so clear that there is no way it couldn't be God, or an Atheist because they say there is a very, very, very, small possibility of that happening? The Christian would say the Atheist is wrong, and the Atheist would say the same about the Christian. And, seeing as no one usually spots their bias against something, it wouldn't make sense for me to call an Atheist bias, and vise versa.

3. Like I said, there is no possibility of sinning in Heaven, but the people there would have not chosen to sin in Heaven in the first place. So, therefore, it wouldn't matter whether or not they had the choice or not. As for you saying it means they don't have free will, they wanted to make it so they can't sin, and they got what they wanted. Theoretically, I'd be possible to ask God that you pay for you sins instead of Jesus, and let yourself go to Hell.



idk why this thread exist.......

no beliefs are going to be changed and all this arguing sure isnt gonna go anywhere



      

This thread was a dumb idea and you should feel dumb idea.



Nintentacle said:
Nighthawk117 said:
Here's my 2 cents:

Does God Exist?

Let's look at this question from another perspective:

Pretend God exists as well as heaven.

So, say we're all dead and wind up in heaven.

What would we do there?
Could we watch porn? Play violent video games?
Could we have sex, do drugs, listen to rock 'n roll?
Could we get into fights, use curse words, give someone we hate the finger?

What exactly would be do in our afterlives in heaven?
Do we just sit around talking politely and singing religious songs?
What rules would we have to follow?

I don't know about you, but I for one wouldn't want to be someone's slave in heaven. I love the freedom I enjoy on the planet Earth.

For instance, I could go outside right now and shoot someone if I wanted - what's stopping me? Not God, but the laws created by man, and the man-made justice system that would hunt me down and prosecute me.

Still, at least I have the freedom to do anything I want, when I want.

I cannot see heaven enabling me to be as free as I am on the Earth, thus, it would be a dysfunctional place - people would revolt.

In closing, God does not exist and there cannot be a heaven. No one would like it. Who wants to be someone's slave? It's better that we just die and go to sleep eternally. When you are sleeping you feel no pain, no sadness, no unhappiness. Time just flies by until you wake up. Subtract the waking up part and that is what death is all about.

Most people wind up in hell (Matthew 7:13-14). You can't base your opinion on if everyone went to Heaven, because it says few (Probably still in the millions/billions area, but Hell would outnumber it by a lot) actually go to Heaven

People that are addicted to porn, sex (In some cases), and/or drugs when they die probably won't go to Heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9)

It would be considered retrictions for the people that end up in Heaven, it would be "Now I can live eternity with ever doing those things again, along with peace.". They aren't slaves because they willingly do it.

In other words:

The people that think of Heaven (A place of eternal peace), resticting won't go there in the first place, because they want to live in a sinful lifestyle.


Ok, I'll play along with your line of reasoning...

I'm not addicted to anything.  It would be nice to be able to have some fun in heaven.  For instance,  no porn - let me watch the Victoria Secret fashion show.  No drugs - let me smoke a cigar.  No booze either - gimme a Sharp's then.  No sex with strangers - let me bang my girlfriend/ wife.  Now, am I still a sinner?

Furthur, everybody sins at least a little throughout their lives.  That's what confession is for - to be absolved of your sins.   That's what last rites are also for.  Are you telling me those two key tenets, of at least Catholicism, are not valid? 

My primary point is that you cannot have free will in heaven,  and thus, without free will you are someone's slave, to put it bluntly.



Nintentacle said:
bouzane said:
Nintentacle said:
vivster said:
Athesits don't need to prove anything!

Also lol.

Well, they do need to prove that God doesn't exist.


I'm sure others have already pointed this out but that's not how things work. You have to prove god exists, nobody has to prove that it doesn't. Just as you don't have to prove that there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster because the burden of proof is on those that make the claim. Therefore, god doesn't exist until you prove it does. I myself am an atheist because it is the most logical.

There is burden of proof on both sides; No piece of evidence can indefinitely prove that God does or doesn't exist.

Although, I don't understand the Big Bang, it doesn't make sense to me. How can nothing, at all, exist, and the Big Bang happen? Because if something existed before the Universe, than that was a part of the Universe, because the Universe contains everything that existed. Wouldn't it make more sense to say the Universe always existed (In the sense of time), and the Earth, Sun, Moon, etc. were formed over the course of billions of years? That's what I would say if I were an atheist.


No, it is not, it is always on the party that makes the claim. You need to prove that something exists, not the other way around. If it was the other way around you would need to prove that leprechauns don't exist.

The thing about the Big Bang is that all of the evidence that we have supports the theory, we have actual proof to back up our assertions. It is still a theory for the same reason that our understanding of gravity is still theoretical, we need to be 100% certain about every aspect of the theory before it becomes scientific fact. Until that day in the distant future we will continue to teach it as a principle because the scientific community knows that it is correct, just not every single last detail.

That being said, if god needed to exist in order to create the Universe, why does nothing need to exist before god in order to create it? This god character does not explain anything without raising further questions. Additionally, there is literally zero evidence to support the existence of god, therefore I remain an atheist.