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Forums - General Discussion - The Religious Argument Thread!

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

- The fact that a great amount of people have a certain belief does not increase the odds of said belief to be true; nor does it make it more valid. After all, back in the day it was the general consensus that the Earth was flat. And not too long ago many believed in witches.

This doesn't really invalidate any reliogion. As for the Bible having witches/sorcery, some Satanist do that type of magic. You'd have to prove that they can't.

- Unless you are a literal believer, the Bible is all about interpretations. People can take whichever parts they find interesting and shape their beliefs based on those texts, while completely ignoring other parts and dismiss them as results of humans interfering with God's word. This means that everyone believes in a different god that they have created themselves based on their views of how the one true God should be. What this also means is that you statistically have an incredibly low chance of believing in the correct god, assuming he does exist.

If you actually believed in the Bible, you wouldn't cherrypick things out of it.

- If decisions made using your free will is all that will be taken into account when deciding whether you will enter heaven or hell, this means that you will not be able to affect the chances of others entering heaven (or hell for that matter) since you interfering with another person is completely out of their control. Your actions are not something they can pick. And if circumstances affect your chances of entering heaven, we would be dealing with an unjust system. Let me give you an example:

You see a stranger walk past you on the street and have the choice to either hand out a pro (insert religion of choice) flyer or ignore them for one reason or another. In one case you do hand it out and the person is inspired by this flyer to the point where he decides to convert to this new religion. In the other case, you don't hand it out and the person will never find this inspiration and die along with his incorrect beliefs. What this means is that whether he ends up in heaven or hell may greatly depend on your actions, not only his own, which would not be fair to either him nor you if you regret not handing out that flyer. This also means that preaching your faith and, in fact, having any belief can be completely pointless as the only true factor is how you would act in certain situations regardless of the circumstances. In other words, an atheist or a Hindu might be just as likely to enter heaven considering that circumstances (such as place of birth and upbringing) may have brought them to their current beliefs rather than choice.

I think God gives everyone a chance to believe in him or not. There's plenty of atheist that were born in a Christian family.





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Nintentacle said:

- This doesn't really invalidate any reliogion. As for the Bible having witches/sorcery, some Satanist do that type of magic. You'd have to prove that they can't.

- If you actually believed in the Bible, you wouldn't cherrypick things out of it.

- I think God gives everyone a chance to believe in him or not. There's plenty of atheist that were born in a Christian family.

 

- Occam's razor. The burden of proof is yours.

If you are actually a literal believer, you support rape victims being forced to marry the people who raped them, among several other stupid, horrific and dated ideas.

-  Sure, but how many Christians were born in an atheist family? Far, far less I'd assume. And you can't say it's a coincidence that very few people in, say, Saudi Arabia are Christian or atheist despite being perfectly capable of making free choices like you and me. Birth place and especially upbringing plays a massive part in what religion people end up believing in. Parents do their best trying to send their kids to the same heaven as themselves, after all.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Nintentacle said:

- This doesn't really invalidate any reliogion. As for the Bible having witches/sorcery, some Satanist do that type of magic. You'd have to prove that they can't.

- If you actually believed in the Bible, you wouldn't cherrypick things out of it.

- I think God gives everyone a chance to believe in him or not. There's plenty of atheist that were born in a Christian family.

 

- Occam's razor. The burden of proof is yours.

If you are actually a literal believer, you support rape victims being forced to marry the people who raped them, among several other stupid, horrific and dated ideas.

-  Sure, but how many Christians were born in an atheist family? Far, far less I'd assume. And you can't say it's a coincidence that extremely few people in, say, Saudi Arabia are Christian despite being perfectly capable of making free choices like you and me. Birth place and especially upbringing plays a massive part in what religion people end up believing in. Parents do their best trying to send their kids to the same heaven as themselves, after all.

- Occam's Razor doesn't disprove the existense of sorcery. It just shows that the first reaction of people is going to be, "This guy is nuts.". As for me, I can't prove they exist, but I think there is a possibility that they do. If you are so sure they don't, based off of facts, show the evidence to support it instead of saying, "The most simple answer is usually correct."

- The Bible doesn't say that the rape victim has to marry the rapist necessarily. If the father doesn't approve, the rapist owes the virgin money (Exodus 22:16-17)

- Arguing about this one is a lost cause. I don't know why God does it, but he does say, "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate me." So, basically, God has a (Good) reason for everything, but that doesn't mean he'll tell you the reason, and/or you won't understand it.



Nintentacle said:

- Occam's Razor doesn't disprove the existense of sorcery. It just shows that the first reaction of people is going to be, "This guy is nuts.". As for me, I can't prove they exist, but I think there is a possibility that they do. If you are so sure they don't, based off of facts, show the evidence to support it instead of saying, "The most simple answer is usually correct."

- The Bible doesn't say that the rape victim has to marry the rapist necessarily. If the father doesn't approve, the rapist owes the father money (Exodus 22:16-17)

- Arguing about this one is a lost cause. I don't know why God does it, but he does say, "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate me. So, basically, God has a reason for everything, but that doesn't mean he'll tell you the reason, and/or you won't understand it.


- If you consider the supernatural to be a possibility, then there is a possibility of fairies and trolls wandering the forests when people are not looking. If you are so sure they don't based off of facts, show the evidence to support it.

- I purposefully skipped the details because they are irrelevant. The exact quote is still a prime example of how dated the Bible is in regards to gender equality and laws in general.

Out of curiosity, would you say that a father has the right (or alternatively should have the right) to force his daughter to marry her rapist? Because if you don't, you also cherrypick to a degree. Just like the people who don't actually believe in the Bible, as you put it.

- Well, you're right about that.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Nintentacle said:

- Occam's Razor doesn't disprove the existense of sorcery. It just shows that the first reaction of people is going to be, "This guy is nuts.". As for me, I can't prove they exist, but I think there is a possibility that they do. If you are so sure they don't, based off of facts, show the evidence to support it instead of saying, "The most simple answer is usually correct."

- The Bible doesn't say that the rape victim has to marry the rapist necessarily. If the father doesn't approve, the rapist owes the father money (Exodus 22:16-17)

- Arguing about this one is a lost cause. I don't know why God does it, but he does say, "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate me. So, basically, God has a reason for everything, but that doesn't mean he'll tell you the reason, and/or you won't understand it.


- If you consider the supernatural to be a possibility, then there is a possibility of fairies and trolls wandering the forests when people are not looking. If you are so sure they don't based off of facts, show the evidence to support it.

- I purposefully skipped the details because they are irrelevant. The exact quote is still a prime example of how dated the Bible is in regards to gender equality and laws in general.

Out of curiosity, would you say that a father has the right (or alternatively should have the right) to force his daughter to marry her rapist? Because if you don't, you also cherrypick to a degree. Just like the people who don't actually believe in the Bible, as you put it.

- Well, you're right about that.

Really, this is all a lost cause. No side is ever going to agree with the other.

This thread is now irrelevant.



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I am Catholic. I am a pretty open minded person; I have heard many strong arguments from the skeptic side and stuff that might provoke questions from believers. But I am still a Catholic not because I close my mind to the arguments, but because I have faith, and that's something not even the most argumentative atheist can attempt to change. I do respect any opposing point of view, but I don't have to agree to it.

There is one thing that really ticks me off and that's some atheists referring to God as an "invisible man in the sky" as a sarcastic reply, as many other provoking thoughts. Again, I respect their points of view, but I, at least, feel it's something to elicit a response from believers. You go someplace over the internet, and you see some blatantly mocking Christians and their points of view, and honestly, it makes me take them less seriously. This applies to both sides.



Soriku said:
Mr_No said:
I am Catholic. I am a pretty open minded person; I have heard many strong arguments from the skeptic side and stuff that might provoke questions from believers. But I am still a Catholic not because I close my mind to the arguments, but because I have faith, and that's something not even the most argumentative atheist can attempt to change. I do respect any opposing point of view, but I don't have to agree to it.

There is one thing that really ticks me off and that's some atheists referring to God as an "invisible man in the sky" as a sarcastic reply, as many other provoking thoughts. Again, I respect their points of view, but I, at least, feel it's something to elicit a response from believers. You go someplace over the internet, and you see some blatantly mocking Christians and their points of view, and honestly, it makes me take them less seriously. This applies to both sides.


Faith in gods is practically blind to anything that conflicts with a faithful person's scripture of choice, devolving to nothing but circular logical ("[my scripture of choice] is true because [my scripture of choice] says it's true") as I pointed out above, so I have to question how open minded you are, when in the end you're too confined to the scriptures. No offense. Depending on how strong your faith is, no matter of arguments or evidence will change your mind...which I don't think is a good thing, but it is what it is, and I agree.

While I'm open minded to different arguments and I think about them, it doesn't mean I have to immediately take them as the absolute truth. I'm not refuting science or being ignorant. By open minded, I mean I'm not a bible thumper that think the Bible is the only truthful source of information. I don't believe that the Earth was made 6,000 years ago. I do see the scriptures as a loose interpretation. I don't have to see the scriptures as anyone else does. So you think it's a bad thing that I firmly stand by what I believe? Because it's never bad when atheists fully refutes others beliefs, is it? And I know you didn't mean the above as an offense.



Soriku said:
Mr_No said:

While I'm open minded to different arguments and I think about them, it doesn't mean I have to immediately take them as the absolute truth. I'm not refuting science or being ignorant. By open minded, I mean I'm not a bible thumper that think the Bible is the only truthful source of information. I don't believe that the Earth was made 6,000 years ago. I do see the scriptures as a loose interpretation. I don't have to see the scriptures as anyone else does. So you think it's a bad thing that I firmly stand by what I believe? Because it's never bad when atheists fully refutes others beliefs, is it? And I know you didn't mean the above as an offense.


There are no good external references pointing to the fact that the Bible or any other religious scripture is true. It's all taken on faith, which I don't agree with, so that's why I don't like it. Not that it should matter to you whether I do or not though.

Atheists at least have a strong basis for refuting religious beliefs. Faith just can't do that with atheist arguments. So that's why I have no issue with atheists refuting religious beliefs (you don't have to be insulting to make a case against religion either). It's what makes sense to me.

I do know the scriptures are based on faith. And you don't have to like or agree with it, and I really don't mind if you do or don't. Catholicism is my way of life, and I don't see it as black or white. I have no issues with atheists making their point, but like I mentioned on my first post, I strongly dislike when certain people have to resort to insults, and in my opinion, that makes the offenders look as bad as the bible thumpers. I reiterate that I'm a firm believer, but I'm not closeminded.



Soriku said:

 


There are no good external references pointing to the fact that the Bible or any other religious scripture is true. It's all taken on faith, which I don't agree with, so that's why I don't like it. Not that it should matter to you whether I do or not though.

Atheists at least have a strong basis for refuting religious beliefs. Faith just can't do that with atheist arguments. So that's why I have no issue with atheists refuting religious beliefs (you don't have to be insulting to make a case against religion either). It's what makes sense to me.


It sure took you a lot of faith to make such a claim, also in your previous post you referred to evolution as a proof to debunk some religious beliefs.. While Evolution itself is described as a theory by science. It is good to review our believes from time to time, just be sure to make yourself a subject to it too. Be aware not to become exactly like the people that you are describing :)

 

Other than that I'm not interested in this kind of arguments, I had enough of them :)



Soriku said:
VXIII said:
Soriku said:

There are no good external references pointing to the fact that the Bible or any other religious scripture is true. It's all taken on faith, which I don't agree with, so that's why I don't like it. Not that it should matter to you whether I do or not though.

Atheists at least have a strong basis for refuting religious beliefs. Faith just can't do that with atheist arguments. So that's why I have no issue with atheists refuting religious beliefs (you don't have to be insulting to make a case against religion either). It's what makes sense to me.


It sure took you a lot of faith to make such a claim, also in your previous post you referred to evolution as a proof to debunk some religious beliefs.. While Evolution itself is described as a theory by science. It is good to review our believes from time to time, just be sure to make yourself a subject to it too. Be aware not to become exactly like the people that you are describing :)

 

Other than that I'm not interested in this kind of arguments, I had enough of them :)


Why exactly would it take a lot of faith to make my claim? Next, are you going to tell me that it takes a lot of faith to not believe in Santa Claus?

Also, are you really trying to purport the tired old "evolution is just a theory" nonsense (and gravity is "just a theory" too huh?)? I encourage you religious people to look up the definition of a scientific theory, and try to understand the difference between it and a hypothesis, so you don't look like fools. Please.

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses. A scientific theory is differentiated from a hypothesis in that a theory must explain actual observations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

I already understand the theistic position and arguments. Time and time again you'll find any argument goes back to circular logic and the scriptures are true because the scriptures say so. It's a weak argument and all you really have. At least science has substantial evidence. Give me substantial and widely accepted evidence that a particular religion or god(s) is real, and then I'll believe it. Till then...

First, you have no idea if I'm one of the " you religious people" or not. You got aggressive for no reason.

Second, we don't need Wikipedia to know what a theory is, it does contain explanations to some events that are observed in the nature. It is, however, can not be used as proof in any reasonable discussion because it is not a rule or law, it doesn't explain everything, like how everything started for instance. Your use of it as proof reveal much of your faith. Sure you can copy paste a definition from Wikipedia, doesn't make you know what it means ( not saying that you don't) 

Third, you claim that there are no good external references that support ANY religious scripture. If I understand you correctly, you mean historical frames of the scriptures? There is a historical sources that contain every detail, when each verse was first spoken, why and who was meant by it, even where. If you are interested in that subject (which I doubt you are) you can do more reseach on the Islamic history and the known Interpretation books of the Quran.

In my humble opinion you make claims that are much, much bigger than your knowledge and age ( or mine). I only came here to give an advice, I have no idea how I ended up as one of the "fool religious people"...

And yes, the arguments are the same, the aggressive tones are the same.. Almost always unfruitful. Change comes from inside, that way I'm not interested anymore.