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Forums - Politics Discussion - What's Your View On Communism?

Mr Khan said:
Blouge said:
""labor" is going to become insanely cheap and abundant due to the proliferation of robots/machines" - Mr. Khan

This is sheer nonsense. See von Mises:

"Our world is different. Labor is more scarce than material factors of production... there are material factors of production which remain unused because the labor required is needed for the satisfaction of more urgent needs. In our world there is no abundance, but a shortage of manpower, and there are unused material factors of production, i.e. land, mineral deposits, and even plants and equipment."

Then explain the slack in the labor market. Weak wages and stubborn unemployment levels, but not diminishing productivity or profits.

If labor were scarce, we'd never have to worry about capitalism because the laws of supply and demand would mean *everyone* got paid well.

I would personally say that high unemployment and overall low wages (in tandem) are caused by distortions in the perceived market value of different uses of labor caused by unfree markets (taxes/subsidies.) The jobs in which wages are low are so because - much like the housing crisis - a bubble was created through inefficient subsidies, and a surplus of workers in that field exists, which would not otherwise exist in a free market. This instead was an education bubble. There is a false belief that level of education should (in itself) provide higher income and more secure job opportunities, when in fact it has also to do with a diversity and specificity in education and skills. Companies want unique individuals who can give them what can't be found elsewhere. And that is where the "scarcity" in labor comes from, the diversity of human beings able to fill a specific niche that an unintelligent machine or a standard human with no skills cannot perform. Whoever can fill as many niches as possible has the most job security and the highest negotiability for pay-raises. Marx's predicts and the assumption of  the labor theory of value fail for this reason. For example, he predicted the United States would be the first country to have a socialist revoluton, just because the United States had powerful labor unions at his time. Instead, the jobs shifted from factories and mining to railroads and steel and then to automobiles and infastructure, and also to service jobs like office-administration and teaching. The workforce was content because of the diversification of labor, and the ability to suit specific niches for which they enjoyed. Today, the United States is one of the countries in the world least primed for a socialist revolution, albeit the rise of fascism/corporatism is mostly a reason for that as well. 



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Cypher1980 said:
I remember being told many years ago.

Capitalism succeeds while Communism fails for the same reason. Human Greed

Yet (current) capitalism is heavily dependent on communism, without China's cheap labor how would capitalism look today. Plus it heavily depends on being able to borrow capital to spend itself out of trouble. USA has $60 trillion debt, yet we call that a succesful system. Capitalism is a giant ponzi scheme, who knows how much longer it can work. At some point the cheap labor or cheap oil will run out.



SvennoJ said:
Cypher1980 said:
I remember being told many years ago.

Capitalism succeeds while Communism fails for the same reason. Human Greed

Yet (current) capitalism is heavily dependent on communism, without China's cheap labor how would capitalism look today. Plus it heavily depends on being able to borrow capital to spend itself out of trouble. USA has $60 trillion debt, yet we call that a succesful system. Capitalism is a giant ponzi scheme, who knows how much longer it can work. At some point the cheap labor or cheap oil will run out.

China's economic system is a market socialist system or state capitalist system, whichever terminology you prefer. It isn't a market-less, command-control, socialist system anymore, and it is certainly, never has been, a classless society called communism. 

The cheap labor found in China has nothing to do with communism anyway. It has to do with the natural destitution that most of the world had faced since the start of humanity and which has only been resolved, in anyway, by free-markets. 

Right now the biggest battle is between those who want to  limit production and increase destitution through mercantilism/state-capitalism and those who want to allow for growth to remove scarcity through free-markets. 

Oil's quantity demanded will likely become far less by the time it runs out as we proceed toward other energy technologies. As for labor - all labor that is necessary to maintain cheap costs will likely be performed by automated machines. Plus, there are plenty of third world countries in the world that can benefit from such opportunities ( African countries, for example.) There is a reason why cheap labor exists in China, and not - say - the United States. The poor in the United States have so many opportunities that they can deny such low wages, and this means that corporations will work toward automated technologies to address this shortage in the supply of cheap labor. There are still many jobs that can be done in other markets, which marxists failed to predict, and continually do so. 



I think it's important to recognize that we haven't seen a truly communistic country as of yet; the technology isn't there right now. I think Marx said himself that the communist revolution won't succeed until machines can do all/most of the work - but I might be wrong on that.

Communism is a great idea; every one should be equals and live equal, however that isn't compatible with human nature. True communism won't succeed as long as there are people around, since some wants more than they have (just look at all of the Western World) and will try and get what they want.

Communism fails because of human nature, which kinda makes communism a bad idea/philosophy when you think about it. That's not to say that capitalism is all that great either. Don't get me wrong. Capitalism is really destroying a lot of good things



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the2real4mafol said:
Sharu said:
the2real4mafol said:
Scisca said:
Communism is the only system ever created that's even worse than nazism. That is quite a feat. Just kill it with fire.

Please explain. This has got to be one of the craziest things i've ever heard! 

Its ok, he's Polish.

He could of just said he hated Germans and Russians for what they done to his country lol 

Hmm... nazism is a one more type of socialism like comunism... but comunist kill more people (only from start to 1945).

 

For exemple Ukraine, Stalin took their food to kill them - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Or russian work camps - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

Or this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Or this in all countries behind iron curtain - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_murder



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SamuelRSmith said:
Kane1389 said:


It is?

Yeah, Bloomberg banned it in NYC a couple of years ago, citing public health concerns (the city can't verify that the food is safe for consumption), and other cities have followed suit.

The (probable) real reason has little to do with public health concerns, and everything to do with forcing homeless people out of the city.


That seems more like a social problem, rather than a economic/capitalist problem, no?



the2real4mafol said:
Sharu said:
the2real4mafol said:
Scisca said:
Communism is the only system ever created that's even worse than nazism. That is quite a feat. Just kill it with fire.

Please explain. This has got to be one of the craziest things i've ever heard! 

Its ok, he's Polish.

He could of just said he hated Germans and Russians for what they done to his country lol 

Poles (in my general experience) hate other Slavs more than any other group of people. They prefer to be on the side of their western, German overlords



Kane1389 said:
the2real4mafol said:
Sharu said:
the2real4mafol said:
Scisca said:
Communism is the only system ever created that's even worse than nazism. That is quite a feat. Just kill it with fire.

Please explain. This has got to be one of the craziest things i've ever heard! 

Its ok, he's Polish.

He could of just said he hated Germans and Russians for what they done to his country lol 

Poles (in my general experience) hate other Slavs more than any other group of people. They prefer to be on the side of their western, German overlords


Slavs are divided to a those groups:

- those who know that you can't trust Russia (some do not have choise)

- stupid

- ethnic Russian



Kane1389 said:


That seems more like a social problem, rather than a economic/capitalist problem, no?


Yeah, I never said it was a capitalist problem, I was just answering the question as to whether cities have banned food donations to the homeless.



I prefer to look at things as degrees left or right on a continuum... Communism being on the far left and total capitalism being on the far right. There is no ideal place on the far left or far right and the world does not have to be one or the other. For the world to work better it has to be a combination of both.

That said, there are models in place in many different countries. Each country should be governed by the model that works best in their country. For example, the Saudis have been mostly successful at maintaining law and order in the very center of the middle east, while the effort to impose democracy and capitalism on Libya and Iraq can be viewed as a complete failure. This is for a variety of reasons. They are:

- Religious beliefs
- Education levels
- Respect for freedom of choice
- Traditions of the people

In order for a country to stay in the center of the continuum, the country has to be:

- Driven by law over religion
- Be fairly well educated in math and science. And able to read and comprehend.
- Respect that people are different and are allowed to have different views
- Respect traditions that people have
- Respect the value of human life