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Forums - Politics Discussion - Israel-Palestine Conflict: The Full Explanation.

osed125 said:

By the way: "Following the alleged kidnapping of three Israelis teenagers that has now been declared to have nothing to do with the Hamas" where did you find this info? who made that official statement?

Yeah, As far as I recall nobody issued that statement, but Israel does think Hamas did it. Maybe Hamas said they didn't do it? idk.



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This is a sencitive topic ..no news /press in my country will have a relevant discussion about this topic

I hope we can Solve this....



osed125 said:

Your posts is a history lesson, there are a few things I'm not sure if they are correct or not, but I sadly don't have the time to make research. 

In any case, history lessons aren't really meaningful if you want to talk about the current conflict, you know about the origins of the conflict and why it has been like that for almost 60 years, but it doesn't talk about the things that are happening as we speak about Hamas and the IDF. And if you want 100% factual arguments, then there's no point in making this thread in the first place....the only way would be waiting a few years when this current conflict is well documented and researched.

By the way: "Following the alleged kidnapping of three Israelis teenagers that has now been declared to have nothing to do with the Hamas" where did you find this info? who made that official statement?

I'm not here to give an opinion, I'm not interested in opinions in a such a grave conflict, but a recall of the History (that you can verify).

Because of the complete warp, tension and counter-information/information there is around this topic, a discussion would delve into sensitive politics that most people don't master, not in knowledge, not in the logical or law based reasonning, although based on facts, international law and diplomacy we can make the same conclusion than most people: Israel is a legitimate democracy, with a criminal government that has and is violating international and human laws, of which the list of crimes and murders is being documented and growing, but which has its (purely) political, economical and imperial reasons that goes further than Israel own interests, and which lots of Israelis disagree with and lots of other agree with.

As for the three kidnapped teens: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bkUO6e4LMe4J:nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/israel-gaza-kidnap-false-inaccurate/
This article based on the declaration of Israel Police foreign press relation person to both a reported of the BBC and of Buzzfeed was reported on RT, BBC, Jerusalem Post, NyMag, Haaretz etc...and has been removed with no correction or update from all these medias...

That's why it's possible to recount History to have a perspective, but not launch a political discussion in a middle of an information war. People are free or their sources, beliefs and opinions, if they want the truth they'll find it, if they want to believe any of the medias or usual popular opinion on both side, they will.



Boutros said:
We can't really blame Israel for bombing public establishments when the Hamas purposely stores weapons and fires rockets from them. It makes Israel look very bad but that's exactly what the Hamas wants.


How do you know Hamas does that? Because of one ABANDONED school had some rockets stored in it? Hamas is the Palestinian resistance. Funny how the Jewish resistance are referred to heroes and not terrorists? Stop believing the Israeli USA propaganda! 



osed125 said:
goulibouli said:

I read most of the comment. I won't respond to any since not one has been able to argue against officials facts and reports from both UN, Israel and Palestine which I'm using. You are free to share your own version however.

But please let's not make it about "Israhell" or "Hamas terrorists" these are used up buzzwords and completely unfactual tropes being repeated like parrots with not grounded value or truth.

Your posts is a history lesson, there are a few things I'm not sure if they are correct or not, but I sadly don't have the time to make research. 

In any case, history lessons aren't really meaningful if you want to talk about the current conflict, you know about the origins of the conflict and why it has been like that for almost 60 years, but it doesn't talk about the things that are happening as we speak about Hamas and the IDF. And if you want 100% factual arguments, then there's no point in making this thread in the first place....the only way would be waiting a few years when this current conflict is well documented and researched.

By the way: "Following the alleged kidnapping of three Israelis teenagers that has now been declared to have nothing to do with the Hamas" where did you find this info? who made that official statement?


Has Israel provided one shred of evidence it was Hamas or any Palestinians? Why did the Israeli goverment hold back the deaths of the boys over a week? So they could whip up hatred etc



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AnthonyW86 said:

Sorry to say but this post is really anti-Isreal:

You completely ingnored the fact that the Jewish accepted and celebrated the UN's decisision for a two state solution, and it was the Palestinians that started the civil war.

You don't even mention the attack of four neighbour Arab state on Israel the day the British mandate ended, an attack that was suppose to completely obliterate the Jewish state.

It was not the militarisation of Israel that caused the six day war, it was the mobilisation of troops bij Arab states that led Israel to initiate a suprise attack.

And the list goes on and on.

You don't even mention that Hamas is a  terrorist organisation witch is in control of Gaza, seeking complete destruction of the state of Israel.

So everyone please ignore this biased piece and do you're own reading, Wikipedia's pages on both the state of Israel and the state of Palestine containt more than enough info on the history of the region.

 

Just to make clear i think Israel is going way to far with their current attacks, but the way people are starting to forget history and Israel's place in the middle east(only western democracy there) is becoming really dangerous.


I can tell from your response that your a total media sheep! You have no idea what is going on but just believe the status quo and propaganda. Israel don't want peace because they want the land. Maybe you should watch  independent news? Why are Jews and Israel's condemning Israeli occupation of Gaza? Maybe you should take on the views of unbiased media/people who don't have agendas and arms deals etc. I suggest you read up on Miko Paled(the generals son) Israeli and ex IDF!  



Boutros said:
We can't really blame Israel for bombing public establishments when the Hamas purposely stores weapons and fires rockets from them. It makes Israel look very bad but that's exactly what the Hamas wants.

That's like saying that, if a criminal comes out with hostages, it's OK to kill all of the hostages to take out the criminal.

Israel could easily use manpower to take out the weapons and rockets, which would be a lot less likely to kill civilians and, while it might put Israeli soldiers' lives at risk, that's a trade worth making - deaths of soldiers in place of deaths of civilians. And in doing so, they wouldn't be breaking international law. What's more, Israel would be able to easily hold the high ground by being able to demonstrate that they really are trying to minimise civilian deaths. Bombing the locations protects Israeli soldiers by putting Palestinian civilian lives at risk, and that's wrong irrespective of how wrong Hamas's actions may be.

Mind you, the OP was rather blatantly biased. I mean, I could rebut something in just about every paragraph (first paragraph asserted that people call the area the birthplace of human-kind... I've never heard anybody say that, and scientifically, it appears that the birthplace of humankind is in South Africa, a whole continent away). But yes, we can very much blame Israel for bombing public establishments, because it's against International Law.



Most people commenting here have absolutely no idea about whats going over there. I lived in Israel for 3 years or more and I find it surprising how many people "know" who's right and who's wrong.

Has anybody here stopped to think that maybe both the Israeli's and Palestinians are wrong?

The fact is human beings are faulty creatures, far from perfect and many of us are far to quick to react to in hate to anything or anyone who offends us.

Remember almost all news is biased, as it is the production of faulty human beings.



Ashadian said:
I can tell from your response that your a total media sheep! You have no idea what is going on but just believe the status quo and propaganda. Israel don't want peace because they want the land. Maybe you should watch  independent news? Why are Jews and Israel's condemning Israeli occupation of Gaza? Maybe you should take on the views of unbiased media/people who don't have agendas and arms deals etc. I suggest you read up on Miko Paled(the generals son) Israeli and ex IDF! 

Phrases like "media sheep", "Zionist", "anti-semitism", "apologist", etc, are always words used by those who have closed their mind to the possibility of being wrong, and are used to beat down debate rather than opening it up and debating on facts.

I suggest you spend your time asking yourself if your analysis of the situation is balanced. I also suggest this to anybody who asserts the opposite of what you assert.

Guess what? Reality isn't black-and-white, it's a whole spectrum of colours. It's not nearly as simple as you might think, and neither side can be considered innocent in this atrocious and reprehensible situation. Indeed, there's a lot of blame to go around, from the British who thought it was a good idea to establish a Jewish state on what was, at the time, majority Muslim land, to the Muslim states around the area that thought it was a good idea to attack Israel to try to destroy it, to the Israeli government who acts as though it has some divine right to expand into Palestinian land, to the various organisations in Palestine who think (or have at one time thought) that violence, suicide bombings, and armed resistance were the way to achieve a better situation.

Hamas has, in its founding document, a quotation attributed to Mohammed (although it's disputed whether he actually said it) that refers to the end of days, in which it speaks of Muslims killing Jews wherever they hide, and the land itself working to help the Muslims. This informs Hamas's actions. And it becomes clear how this might be influencing them when you look at actions, as until relatively recently, they quite often carried out suicide bombings (and claimed the credit; this isn't some conspiracy situation). Even now, despite the parts in the Quran about only fighting when the enemy fights, and stopping when the enemy stops, Hamas has, multiple times in this most recent situation alone, refused to allow even a temporary cease fire (or has refused to extend such a cease fire).

This doesn't legitimise Israel's actions. But it does bring some insight into the situation that viewpoints like yours lack.

Both sides quite simply lack the perspective necessary to understand the situation.

Those in favour of Israel will claim that it's the "only western democracy" in the region... now, aside from the fact that Israel is not a western democracy (Israel is not a western nation, by definition), Jordan has a system bearing strong resemblance to that of Britain, which is broadly considered a western democracy.

Those against Israel will claim that there is some sort of propaganda system in place, where Jews somehow magically control the world's media. Also nonsense. All that is happening is that Israel is far more skilled at PR than most Muslim nations, or Hamas or Fatah. Netanyahu spends as much time as he can talking to the media, to keep their message out there. Meanwhile, both Abbas and Haniyeh mostly just put out press releases and talk to their own people. As a result, worldwide media gets saturated with Israel's message, and Palestine's message, if it gets heard, gets heard from media people in Palestine, reporting on the situation, rather than direct from the source.

In truth, it's my opinion that, if Abbas got some savvy PR advisors, and some policy wonks that could advise him on courses of action, he'd be able to solve this problem and walk away with a strong government leadership position (either as the strongly-supported head of a Palestinian state or as one of the leaders of a combined state, depending on whether it's a two- or one-state solution) and a Nobel Peace Prize. He is uniquely positioned to truly solve this problem, in a way that countries like Egypt, America, and Jordan aren't. He could be the voice of reason, the one calling for true peace and for dialogue rather than violence from both sides. He could embarrass both sides into coming to the table, and he could manipulate the US into forcing Israel to stop settlements and to recognise Palestine properly. For instance, he could demand that Israel recognise Palestine's right to exist.

If you're willing to consider things from both sides, and open your mind to the possibility that it's not a fight between good and evil, then you might just come to understand at least a fraction of what is happening there. Sadly, I fear that you will remain stuck in your one-sided, biased, rhetoric-filled view, the same kind of view that is driving this madness (on both sides)... but at least this post might just manage to help somebody, somewhere, to come to a more well-rounded view of the situation.



Aielyn said:

Sadly, I fear that you will remain stuck in your one-sided, biased, rhetoric-filled view, the same kind of view that is driving this madness (on both sides)... but at least this post might just manage to help somebody, somewhere, to come to a more well-rounded view of the situation.