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Forums - General Discussion - Breaking: Ukraine airliner 'crash'

Sharu said:
mai said:

DoS briefeing. What intel data? No, social media!

She's seriously referring to that tape uploaded to YT by SBU :D Even if we forget how "reliable" SBU was in the past, you need to invest like 10-15 min to check the audio in any editor to see this is a badly made montage.

This is very strange! My hobby is music, I'm quite good in home recording and often speak with a high level sound engeneers on forums. And I can tell you that level of audio editing/music studios in Ukraine is very good, on some positions better than Russian. 
So to see this badly made fake make me think that any self-respecting sound engineers just reject working on this shit, leaving it to SBU 'experts'.

Since the beginning of this farce Ukrainian secret service is responsible for a functions that are out of area of responsibility of any other secret service, a propagandisitc machine.

It's "arresting" FSB and GRU operatives in Ukraine at the rate CIA and FBI would have envy :D Of course everything goes to Youtube, but we never see if any actual legal actions are taken against such "operatives". As for that tape, did they take any legal actions? No. Was it sent as an evidence to team of experts? No. Instead they've made a dozens of videos, translating it to various languages, "to let the world know the truth!" so to speak.

So in that regards, as propagandisitc machine, they are doing good, quality of the montage was good enough for that purpose, they aren't going to present it as an evidence. They might not earn a worldwide acclaim, but within certain part of Ukrainians with the lowest standards in terms of critical thinking it might (no need to think that in Ukraine everyone is buying this, far from it).



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PDF said:
Another journalist leaves RT over their coverage of MH17 http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/jul/18/mh17-russia-today-reporter-resigns-sara-firth-kremlin-malaysia

I find it strange that western journalist are so afraid to speak the truth...



PDF said:
Another journalist leaves RT over their coverage of MH17 http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/jul/18/mh17-russia-today-reporter-resigns-sara-firth-kremlin-malaysia

Starting this post and below. Has been discussed already.



PDF said:

So we got either a Ukrainian Jet or Buk missle system fired by seperatist.   If fired by a jet, it would seem unlikely for it to be a mistake.  They would know exactly what they were firing at.  A surface to air missle would be far more likely to make a mistake.

No, we got either Ukrainian jet or Buk or rebels' Buk. Russian briefieng didn't state it clearly if Su-25 has fired anything.



Nice article!
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/



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PDF said:
mai said:

PDF said:

So we got either a Ukrainian Jet or Buk missle system fired by seperatist.   If fired by a jet, it would seem unlikely for it to be a mistake.  They would know exactly what they were firing at.  A surface to air missle would be far more likely to make a mistake.

No, we got either Ukrainian jet or Buk or rebels' Buk. Russian briefieng didn't state it clearly if Su-25 has fired anything.

So what do you believe is most likely?   If you think it was the Ukrain military wouldn't you agree it seems unlikely for it to be a mistake.  The rebels dont have an airforce, so why would they be firing at anything? 

1) If given information is right and Su-25 is the only military aircraft that was around; 2) if this indeed was Su-25 (its correct indentification was considered only as probable), whatever Su-25 was doing there it wasn't an aircraft that shot Boeing down.

Even though previously I'm absolutely ruled out possibility of Su-25 hitting Boeing, on the very same briefing it was stated that temporarly it could climb higher that its sustained ceiling, making it closer to Boeing than I previously thought. So I stand corrected and theoretically this is a possibility. Nevertheless a) it doesn't have a radar since its CAS aircraft; b) R-60 AAM that Su-25 could indeed fire is mostly for pilot's self-assurance it has countermeasures against bigger birds than anything else, reasons see in a); c) hitting aerial target with unguided missiles is a gamble and stakes would be against Su-25; d) hitting it with a gun is possible, but Boeing seems to be completely obliterated in the midair, so I wouldn't bet on the gun.

So given existing information my suggestion would be Buk despite the fact there're some reasonable evidences against that theory. My bet would be Ukrainian Buk, because there's no proofs that rebels have operational Buk -- only one non-operational missile launcher that is not sufficient to effictively hit Boeing even if it was operational, while Ukrainians did have plenty of operational Buks on place and their radars were confirmed to be working on the day, hour and minute Boeing has crashed.

That's not a proof, but if I'd have to choose, that'd be my answer. New information might change my opinion.



PDF said:
mai said:

So given existing information my suggestion would be Buk despite the fact there're some reasonable evidences against that theory. My bet would be Ukrainian Buk, because there's no proofs that rebels have operational Buk -- only one non-operational missile launcher that is not sufficient to effictively hit Boeing even if it was operational, while Ukrainians did have plenty of operational Buks on place and their radars were confirmed to be working on the day, hour and minute Boeing has crashed.

That's not a proof, but if I'd have to choose, that'd be my answer. New information might change my opinion.

So continuing  your theory, do you think the Ukrainian military intentionally or accidentally fired at a civillian airliner?  Like I said before, it being an accident seems unlikely because the rebels don't have an airforce.  So why would the Ukrainian military be shooting at anything.

If it was intentional, what was their motive?  Was it to frame the rebels?   This begins to sound ver conspiracy-esque.  You honestly don't think its more plausible that it was a mistake made by the rebels.  With Buk provided by Russia?

 

Also more Colbert on the issue.  http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/guests/julia-ioffe/1872w0/julia-ioffe

If Su-25 shot it down -- most likely intentional (question about motives goes to Washington, I hope nobody needs confirmation that everyhting happening in Ukraine is a proxy war and Kiev by itself is not a descision maker), if Buk -- either way is possibility.

Of course, Buk provided by Russia is a possibility, but I'm basing my assumptions on information that I have, not inventing anything, otherwise we could suggest a lot of possibilities including very wild ones, while your questions was about what I consider the most probable judging from infro we have now. Russian MD didn't share info on active Kupol radars on rebels territory. Of course, they could have lied, but if the idea was to frame Ukraine, better lie it was Su-27, not Su-25. While US DoS refuses to provide any kind of intel. At this point in time I don't have any information about Buks being used by rebels nor consider handing smth like this to them a very probable scenario,  a) since its at the very least 4 tracked vehicles, missing smth like that is equivalent if missing elephant in the room; 2) providing Buk to rebels effectively means providing crew for it as well since unprepared crew won't be able to operate it.



Wow. Ukraine Ministry of Defence today in the morning told that MAYBE it was a 'situation' during missile trainings on 17th of July, jn which accidentely civil plane was targeted. They didn't have the intention to shot it down, but MAYBE something unplanned happened...

Everybody who told bad things about Russians and 'rebels'. Please publish your photos with your tongue in your ass.



4 days ago black boxes were given by Donentsk rebels to Malaysia. Next day they was at Britaion investigators, they told that they need up to 48 hours to decipher it.
Anybody heard something about the results?



Sharu said:
4 days ago black boxes were given by Donentsk rebels to Malaysia. Next day they was at Britaion investigators, they told that they need up to 48 hours to decipher it.
Anybody heard something about the results?

Flight MH-17 Black Box Reveals "Massive Explosive Decompression"

It is interesting to note that both pieces of information (military jet around and multiple hits, 2 or 3) from witnesses have been proved now.

BTW "multiple hits" is one more fact to seriously doubt any Buk involvement in actualing downing an airplane. Some from the very beginning suggested that version that involves Buk is a false flag to put blame on someone else.

To critisize the hypothesis I posted above, here's another fact that made me doubt Buk involvement as well -- nobody have seen the launch -- even though between two doubts earlier I've opted for Buk rather than Su-25.

BBC trying to find any sign of a Buk launch as reported by SBU: