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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is raising minimum wage nationwide a horrible idea?

prayformojo said:
Mr Khan said:
prayformojo said:
It only works if there are laws in place to stop inflation. Being that this is the US, all we're going to see is $7.00 gallons of milk at the store. Living wages go up, costs go up. Companies don't want to lose their profits.

Again, is there any proof that this will occur in quantities sufficient to offset the gains?


When has this NOT occured in this country? When I was a kid, min wage was $4.XX and the price of a pack of cigarettes was $1.45. Inflation is real lol

Not remotely what i'm asking. I'm asking if this inflation is tied to the minimum wage hike.

Cigarettes are also a bad example, because they've increased in price faster than inflation due to sin tax hikes.



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-CraZed- said:

Your assertion that a capitalist economy is based on consumerism is strictly false. Capitalism is based on the private ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the free exchange of goods and services under the motivation of profit. Capitalism is no more based on consumption than any other economic model. All economies rely on buying and selling.

Now American society at large might be based on consumerism (keeping up with the jonses, massive amounts of consumer credit and debt etc.) you could certainly make that argument but Capitaism? No.

We shouldn't have to "push" down wages they should naturally fall or rise to where they need to be through individuals making the decision for themselves on how much their time and energy is worth.

There are many reasons for hiring more labor if you can afford it besides the expansion of your business. It gives you a larger pool of workers with which to spread the work load, thereby ensuring you can cover lost days of productivity when another woker is sick or on leave. It allows you to keep operations open for longer periods of time or to not close shop at all. It eases work stress on employees thereby helping them to be more productive. It isn't simply about expanding.

Going to $15/hr is an arbitrary number with absolutely NO real data to support it being the silver bullet to end poverty or create equality or raise the standard of living for those who make minimum wage today. Because we have minimum wage laws we are doomed to repeat this cycle over and over and over again and all well have to show for it is a nation of millionares who still can't afford to buy a loaf of bread.

I'm a bit sceptical of minimum wage because as you say it is meaningless but also due to how the system is rigged, it will keep going higher and higher despite making no difference in long term. Mimimum wage shouldn't be needed nor should the welfare state be needed but part of me thinks its necessary only due to unfairness of capitalism and competition in general. Crony capitalist competition is forcing wages down as we are constantly told to compete with China and India etc. Why should we? I don't know the real answer but it's seems to me that advanced economies are being forced to compete with less advanced economies where labour is much cheaper. Good for them but bad for the millions of people who left to do little worthwhile. It's no good when nothing replaces the jobs that become outsourced out there. Thats partly why it silly when people call the unemployed lazy, they can't do much when there are too few jobs for them let alone create any for themselves. 

To be honest i can't tell what is better a true free market economy or something that replaces the capitalist based economy. I suppose it don't matter as long as i can do what i want in life. The problem i have with free market is that it assumes competition is good for everything, i don't think it is if its a particular industry like housing or health which people actually need. 



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SocialistSlayer said:

everyone is so entitled now.

they feel as if people/the government owe them something.

No one owes them anything, some people have it rougher than others. well toughen up. life isnt fair. not everyone is as fortunate as others.

so work hard, and move up in life without feeling intitled to a standard of living you think you deserve.

I hear ya, no need to tell me twice.

I just turned 30, but be sure that I have the proper things put in place to ensure if god forbid something happened to me, my family would get enough to at least pay off the house.

My fiance makes good money now ($32/hour) but she gets paid by NY state medicaid, so not of it is taxed* and she has no benefits. All of it rides on me.

 

*none of it is taxed: meaning we owe on all of it when we do our taxes the following year. 



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Mr Khan said:
prayformojo said:
Mr Khan said:
prayformojo said:
It only works if there are laws in place to stop inflation. Being that this is the US, all we're going to see is $7.00 gallons of milk at the store. Living wages go up, costs go up. Companies don't want to lose their profits.

Again, is there any proof that this will occur in quantities sufficient to offset the gains?


When has this NOT occured in this country? When I was a kid, min wage was $4.XX and the price of a pack of cigarettes was $1.45. Inflation is real lol

Not remotely what i'm asking. I'm asking if this inflation is tied to the minimum wage hike.

Cigarettes are also a bad example, because they've increased in price faster than inflation due to sin tax hikes.


In the US it's currently not required to be tied to inflation under any federal law.

http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20051221/

Varies state-by-state what that minimum wage is. However this is the federal minimum wage we are talking about. This doesn't change the minimum wage accross the country at least from my outsider understanding. The problem I see is in this article ( http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/07/03/fair-way-raise-minimum-wage), there is a lot of talk from "Chambers of Commerce" about opposition. My only guess it that they'll purposely raise prices in protest to the government. Then again, I'm a big advocate for business and church out of government. :)   



Mr Khan said:
prayformojo said:
Mr Khan said:
prayformojo said:
It only works if there are laws in place to stop inflation. Being that this is the US, all we're going to see is $7.00 gallons of milk at the store. Living wages go up, costs go up. Companies don't want to lose their profits.

Again, is there any proof that this will occur in quantities sufficient to offset the gains?


When has this NOT occured in this country? When I was a kid, min wage was $4.XX and the price of a pack of cigarettes was $1.45. Inflation is real lol

Not remotely what i'm asking. I'm asking if this inflation is tied to the minimum wage hike.

Cigarettes are also a bad example, because they've increased in price faster than inflation due to sin tax hikes.


Yeah, I suppose you're right. And no, I can't provid the hard evidence you're asking for other than observational. Everytime the national MW has gone up, commodoties have also gone up shortly before or after so, I assume it'll happen again.



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prayformojo said:

Yeah, I suppose you're right. And no, I can't provid the hard evidence you're asking for other than observational. Everytime the national MW has gone up, commodoties have also gone up shortly before or after so, I assume it'll happen again.


Commodity prices are always increasing, with or without minimum wage hikes.

Minimum wages do cause market distortions, but let's not get it twisted here, the main culprit behind ever-higher prices in the supermarkets is monetary inflation. It's not just a side-effect, but one of the stated policies of the Federal Reserve (/Bank of England/European Central Bank/All the others).

Eliminating/increasing exemptions from/reducing minimum wage will help employment figures, and long-term incomes, it's effects on prices will be minimal if anything.



DarkWraith said:
if minimum improves, everyone improves. skilled labor jobs will have to increase wages or lose their employees to walmart or staples or some other menial job where they can do nothing and get the same pay. the corporations aren't hurting one bit and can easily afford to retain talent. don't let anyone tell you otherwise, they are obviously clueless.

the concerns seem to come from the fear of the high school dropout flipping burgers making as much as someone who furthered their education and works in business or social work, etc. that will never happen, so that fear is irrational.


Large corporations don't employ everybody, hell, they don't even employ half. 99% of businesses in the USA employ 500 people or less.

 

"Some 19.6 million Americans work for companies employing fewer than 20 workers, 18.4 million work for firms employing between 20 and 99 workers, and 14.6 million work for firms with 100 to 499 workers. By contrast, 47.7 million Americans work for firms with 500 or more employees."

http://economics.about.com/od/smallbigbusiness/a/us_business.htm

Yeah, Walmart and McDonald's employ a bunch of people and could easily afford to pay higher wages.... which is exactly why they support higher minimum wages. Because they can easily pay it, while their smaller competitors will struggle, forcing smaller businesses to raise prices or shut down, and increasing the marketshare for the likes of Walmart and McDonald's.



SamuelRSmith said:
DarkWraith said:
if minimum improves, everyone improves. skilled labor jobs will have to increase wages or lose their employees to walmart or staples or some other menial job where they can do nothing and get the same pay. the corporations aren't hurting one bit and can easily afford to retain talent. don't let anyone tell you otherwise, they are obviously clueless.

the concerns seem to come from the fear of the high school dropout flipping burgers making as much as someone who furthered their education and works in business or social work, etc. that will never happen, so that fear is irrational.


Large corporations don't employ everybody, hell, they don't even employ half. 99% of businesses in the USA employ 500 people or less.

 

"Some 19.6 million Americans work for companies employing fewer than 20 workers, 18.4 million work for firms employing between 20 and 99 workers, and 14.6 million work for firms with 100 to 499 workers. By contrast, 47.7 million Americans work for firms with 500 or more employees."

http://economics.about.com/od/smallbigbusiness/a/us_business.htm

Yeah, Walmart and McDonald's employ a bunch of people and could easily afford to pay higher wages.... which is exactly why they support higher minimum wages. Because they can easily pay it, while their smaller competitors will struggle, forcing smaller businesses to raise prices or shut down, and increasing the marketshare for the likes of Walmart and McDonald's.


Most Mc Donalds are franchised and privatly owned. Not owned by the Mc D's corp. So they could be considered a small business and a large i guess. I know the three mc donalds by me are privatly owned (2 by a former Mc D janitor that saved his money, worked hard, and bought 2 of them). So Mc D's does not employ most Mc D workers, rather they are under the employmnet of the owner of that location.



thranx said:

Most Mc Donalds are franchised and privatly owned. Not owned by the Mc D's corp. So they could be considered a small business and a large i guess. I know the three mc donalds by me are privatly owned (2 by a former Mc D janitor that saved his money, worked hard, and bought 2 of them). So Mc D's does not employ most Mc D workers, rather they are under the employmnet of the owner of that location.


Well, in the UK, around 50% of stores are McDonald's owned, but the point still stands in general.



SamuelRSmith said:
thranx said:

Most Mc Donalds are franchised and privatly owned. Not owned by the Mc D's corp. So they could be considered a small business and a large i guess. I know the three mc donalds by me are privatly owned (2 by a former Mc D janitor that saved his money, worked hard, and bought 2 of them). So Mc D's does not employ most Mc D workers, rather they are under the employmnet of the owner of that location.


Well, in the UK, around 50% of stores are McDonald's owned, but the point still stands in general.

Not really, wal mart, and Mc D's are both against raising the minimun wage. As far as I know. After doing some research it looks like Mc D's operates differently in the UK and Ireland with fewer than 30% of stores being privatly owned, in the US that jumps to 85%.

People are always comparing wal mart to costco and their pay scales. But for wal mart to accomplish paying their workes that much they would most likely invest in a ton of automated equiptment and ware houses, and just lay off workers by the hundreds. To have the few that are left make more, with the machines doing the work. It will most likely happen either way as amazon pressures them more online. Amazon is going to be the new wal mart. Wal mart has slacked on its distribution investment and allowed amazon to make some nice advantages.

I am against it too.

I manage a pizza place, we just raised the min wage by a dollar. As a result I will be letting 3 people go. That sucks. They aren't bad people, but aren't worth paying 9 an hour to. They will be replaced by 1 or 2 better workers (and over time we will have less people working and more automation, it happens every time we raise mmin wage, I have been here since min wage was 5 dollars). All the minimum wage does is hurt those that need it most. It makes people unemployable, and that sucks. I know those three workers would rather make 9 an hour and have a job, than no job. But we dont have that choice any more.