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Forums - Politics Discussion - Supreme Court justice; RBG; displays ignorance of Constitution

Thank goodness for this ruling. Though, it seems to me that the ones opposed to it have an incorrect way of thinking on two issues. One, they only see companies as evil and greedy entities that have no face, as opposed to being made up of hard working people. Now, are some companies greedy? Sure. But, its not ALL of them, as some choose to see it. Even if a company is greedy, it's not some mindless, faceless entity being that way, it's actual people within the company that are. And it's not an us vs. them kind of thing, either. They make products and/or provide services that we CHOOSE to pay for. They may use the money we give them to influence things, but, in the end, WE are the ones who buy the products/services. WE are the ones who keep them in business. If people nowadays weren't so pussified and cried out to the government every time something goes wrong in their life, or felt they needed/deserved things that AREN'T necessities, than they could actually pay attention to their purchases and put any business out of business. Oh, and don't vote for corrupt politicians who like to give out our tax money in bailouts.

Which ties into 2. People thinking they are owed just about EVERYTHING. Contraception isn't a necessity, plus it's cheap. If you want to engage in sex, YOU bare the responsibilities of YOUR actions, not your employer and certainly not me. Cell phones aren't a necessity. If you feel you NEED one, than it is your responsibility to save up to buy the one you want AND provide for your own airtime/minutes, not government, not me. But, hell, cry out to Sugar Daddy Sam (he's no longer the helpful Uncle), he'll take care of it, IF you vote the right way. It wouldn't surprise me if soon the government decides that a car is a necessity and will start handing them out, too. But, hey, they are just cheapy cars, no big deal. Everyone deserves to use the roads they help pay for. And not just as a passenger, or on a bike/scooter. And these same people who demand this stuff don't understand why the national debt keeps ballooning out of control. Or maybe they just don't care.

I say hooray for this finding. At least there is some sense in the world. Hopefully, after mid-terms, there will be a little more. Personally, I'm not too hopeful, as some on the right seem to be okay with voting for liberal-light disguising itself as conservative. But, we shall see.

 

Edit:  Actually there is a third thing.  For some reason, people on the left think that if SDS or a company isn't buying something for a citizen/employee, then that person is being denied the right to that something.  What a load of crock.  If you want contraceptions, you can still buy them.  Your employer can't stop you.  Nor is he/she going to try.  In fact, they don't give a shit what you do at home, as long as you don't bring it into the workplace AND they don't have to pay for your lifestyle.  So, if banging is so important to you, go right ahead.  Just don't expect someone to pay for your condoms/birth control, or any unwanted pregnancies, for you.  Sadly, many still do.  And sometimes the government is all to happy to comply.  In exchange for that vote/support, of course.



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Figgycal said:
SocialistSlayer said:

Why would an "individuals" interest be any more important than a group of individuals, a corporation?

They are still covering 16/20 of the contraceptives. They just didn't want to pay for abortifacients. 

Although ido believe businesses shouldn't be forcedtoo payfor that stuff. The only way that would be a valid comparison is if pregnancy was a disease.

Believe it or not there are actually more than just Christians that are morally apposed to murdering babies. 

So employees views should trump employer?

The only thing this ruling does is get the employer out of the employees personal business.

No that was the citizens United case. And even then that's not true. That case rules they are groups of people. And of course they have constitutional right s if they didn't newspapers wouldn't be able to print their opinions. TV anchors couldn't report what the wanted. Unions couldn't donate money. Etc etc.

You must be. How else could you explain your egregious counter factual claims. 


There's something to be said about your ability to defend the interests of large, faceless corporations over the interests of its employees.

I'm struglling to see how this a victory for the employees that now have to pay for something that was once covered by their insurance, but are not anymore because their bosses found it immoral. Is it a victory because some religions agree with it? Thank goodness than we don't have a clause in our ammendment that either promotes religions or supresses the free excercise thereof. Because as you might realize, not everyone who believes in a religion, has fundamentalist views of that religion. The vast majority of Catholic women, for example use contraception on a regular basis despite Church teachings. Their religious beliefs were overwritten.

But it's not worth even having a discussion about this, because you've already made up your mind that contraception is murder. Well how do argue with that? A kindhearted corporation, that has inalienable rights and religious convictions, decided to stop supporting the murder of innocent babies. I certainly can't argue with that logic. Or any logic you put your faith in.

Edited. Part of my comment was needlessly rude and aggressive, sorry for that.

How is he defending large faceless corporations? This applies to small companies as well. You do realize even small businesses can be incorporated right?

It is a victory in the sense that it sets a very narrow precedent for actual freedom. NO ONE should be forced to pay for someone elses lifestyle, habits or even their circumstances. Not a large facelessevil, greedy corporation run by human beings who all have personal beliefs nor a msall business owner who offers employees health insurance. The relationship between an employee and and an employer is based on a wage for services rendered period. The rest is offered as a benfit and is optional for both parties or at least it should be.

As an employee, you have the right to buy health coverage elsewhere should your employer choose not to offer abortifacients. Why do people have an issue with this?



Aielyn said:
-CraZed- said:
You are right being employed by someone doesn't allow them to enforce their beliefs on you. How does not paying for someone elses contraceptives amount to forcing your religious views on someone? Forcing your employees to pray to Mecca =/= not paying to abort someone's indescretion in their personal life (which I thought we wanted other people out of anyways).

The idea here is that currently under US law it is legal to kill your unborn baby before it has fully incubated in the womb (state law dependant) but that employers have the right to not pay for it. In what way is this an employer forcing their religion on someone? In fact, were they to affirm the opposite of the ruling,  THAT would be forcing ones views upon another.

As someone above me has already pointed out, everybody has to pay for things they don't morally support. Your tax dollars pay for capital punishment, war, and farm subsidies, among other things. You can refuse to pay taxes... by living entirely off the land by your own, etc, and refusing to use any public facilities. Otherwise, the government spending some of your taxes on things that you do not personally support is part of the price of living in a society.

And in this case, you're required to pay for your employees' medical insurance, some of which might cover things that you do not, personally support. But you see, you're not actually paying for the specifics of the coverage, you're paying for "medical insurance", just like you're paying "tax" and not "war support money".


Paying taxes= Government

Paying for health insurance= Private enterprise.

 

Private Enterprise=/=Governemnt.

 

Stop using tax money and "I didn't want to pay for the Iraq war" an excuse. The government is a public democracy with public representives voted by and endorsed by a majority of the electorate to manage a nation. Private companies are privately owned entities, you don't vote for them, you are not forced to work FOR them, you are not a CITIZEN of a corpration. You do NOT PAY A CORPRATION TAXES....THEY PAY YOU A SALARY.

That changes the argument significantly.



burning_phoneix said:
Paying taxes= Government

Paying for health insurance= Private enterprise.

 

Private Enterprise=/=Governemnt.

 

Stop using tax money and "I didn't want to pay for the Iraq war" an excuse. The government is a public democracy with public representives voted by and endorsed by a majority of the electorate to manage a nation. Private companies are privately owned entities, you don't vote for them, you are not forced to work FOR them, you are not a CITIZEN of a corpration. You do NOT PAY A CORPRATION TAXES....THEY PAY YOU A SALARY.

That changes the argument significantly.

Oh, I agree - it's absurd that Americans have to pay for private health insurance rather than having a public option.

Here in Australia, everyone is covered by public health care, and then you can buy private health care to extend coverage to optional things, to get reduction in costs when going to private hospitals (public hospitals are covered by public health care), etc. It is absurd that companies have to pay for health care... but until you Americans grow up and realise that public health care is actually cheaper for the government than private health care (don't believe me? Look at per capita health care spending by government in America and Australia), and that public health care is not socialism or communism, you're stuck with it.

In the meantime, you're speaking as though the corporation is like the government in the analogy. It's NOT. The corporation is the equivalent of the person, the health insurance company is the equivalent of the government and the individual is the equivalent of the public. Corporations have to pay for things they don't support all the time, just like individuals do.

As it has been so perfectly pointed out before, corporations seem to be getting all of the perks of personhood, with none of the responsibilities. Being a citizen means that you have to pay for things the government does that you don't support. Being a corporation means that you have to pay for things your employees do that you don't support. Not all things, of course, but certain specific things that you are legally required to pay for. And privately-owned companies are the equivalent of private citizens (as opposed to public figures) - are you suggesting that only famous people should be bound by laws? If not, then you've missed the point of the analogy entirely.



SocialistSlayer said:
Aielyn said:
Churches are a special case, because they operate on a non-profit basis. And yes, YOUR religious freedoms go beyond the church... but it does not extend to being forced upon your employees.

Tell me, if I get a job working for a muslim, should they be able to force me to do prayers 5 times daily, facing Mecca? By your reasoning, my refusal to do so impacts upon their religious freedom, rather than being a case of me exercising my own. How is the case of paying for health insurance that covers contraception any different?

They should be able to.  Youre not forced to work for them.  
Unfortunately we don't have a free market

You're not forced to be an American citizen, either. Unfortunately, people can't choose not to work, and there aren't quite enough jobs to go around, so what you're basically saying is that, if people don't want to be forced to live by their employer's religious beliefs, then they should just go into poverty.

It's not like we're talking about high income employees who can easily afford to pay the costs of these things. We're talking about people working at minimum wage, who are barely able to make ends meet, and who need things like proper healthcare coverage but can't afford to pay the kinds of costs Americans have to put up with (Australia's healthcare is significantly cheaper, in part thanks to public health insurance for all).



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Aielyn said:
burning_phoneix said:
Paying taxes= Government

Paying for health insurance= Private enterprise.

 

Private Enterprise=/=Governemnt.

 

Stop using tax money and "I didn't want to pay for the Iraq war" an excuse. The government is a public democracy with public representives voted by and endorsed by a majority of the electorate to manage a nation. Private companies are privately owned entities, you don't vote for them, you are not forced to work FOR them, you are not a CITIZEN of a corpration. You do NOT PAY A CORPRATION TAXES....THEY PAY YOU A SALARY.

That changes the argument significantly.

Oh, I agree - it's absurd that Americans have to pay for private health insurance rather than having a public option.

Here in Australia, everyone is covered by public health care, and then you can buy private health care to extend coverage to optional things, to get reduction in costs when going to private hospitals (public hospitals are covered by public health care), etc. It is absurd that companies have to pay for health care... but until you Americans grow up and realise that public health care is actually cheaper for the government than private health care (don't believe me? Look at per capita health care spending by government in America and Australia), and that public health care is not socialism or communism, you're stuck with it.

In the meantime, you're speaking as though the corporation is like the government in the analogy. It's NOT. The corporation is the equivalent of the person, the health insurance company is the equivalent of the government and the individual is the equivalent of the public. Corporations have to pay for things they don't support all the time, just like individuals do.

As it has been so perfectly pointed out before, corporations seem to be getting all of the perks of personhood, with none of the responsibilities. Being a citizen means that you have to pay for things the government does that you don't support. Being a corporation means that you have to pay for things your employees do that you don't support. Not all things, of course, but certain specific things that you are legally required to pay for. And privately-owned companies are the equivalent of private citizens (as opposed to public figures) - are you suggesting that only famous people should be bound by laws? If not, then you've missed the point of the analogy entirely.


First off, I am not American.

Second off, I FULLY support a nationalized health care system ala NHS. Forcing private corpration to provide medical insurance is a shitty healthcare system.

No that that is out of the way:

Where does it say corprations get none of the responsibilites? Does a corpration not pay tax like a person? Does a corpration not obey laws? Does a corpration not have the right to use the justice system to contest laws it feels are unfair?

And the analogy that private corprations=private citizens is ludicrous. My statement meant that a publicly owned company can be influenced by the purchase of shares whereas a private own cannot.

The government forces you to pay tax because like it or not, you are a citizen of that government and in a democracy a government has a mandate from the people to manage the country and the forced payment of income tax is something people have agreed on via a representive vote by the public representatives.

There is no equivalnce that company=person, medical insurance company= government and employees= public.

A medical insurance company is a for profit organization, not a government, a company is not a citizen of a medical insurance company and employees are not a voting bloc of the medical insurance company that allow to extract a "tax" from a private indivdual. They do not vote and are not citizens. The analogy is flawed at it's very core and does not work to further your argument.



Aielyn said:
burning_phoneix said:
Paying taxes= Government

Paying for health insurance= Private enterprise.

 

Private Enterprise=/=Governemnt.

 

Stop using tax money and "I didn't want to pay for the Iraq war" an excuse. The government is a public democracy with public representives voted by and endorsed by a majority of the electorate to manage a nation. Private companies are privately owned entities, you don't vote for them, you are not forced to work FOR them, you are not a CITIZEN of a corpration. You do NOT PAY A CORPRATION TAXES....THEY PAY YOU A SALARY.

That changes the argument significantly.

Oh, I agree - it's absurd that Americans have to pay for private health insurance rather than having a public option.

Here in Australia, everyone is covered by public health care, and then you can buy private health care to extend coverage to optional things, to get reduction in costs when going to private hospitals (public hospitals are covered by public health care), etc. It is absurd that companies have to pay for health care... but until you Americans grow up and realise that public health care is actually cheaper for the government than private health care (don't believe me? Look at per capita health care spending by government in America and Australia), and that public health care is not socialism or communism, you're stuck with it.

In the meantime, you're speaking as though the corporation is like the government in the analogy. It's NOT. The corporation is the equivalent of the person, the health insurance company is the equivalent of the government and the individual is the equivalent of the public. Corporations have to pay for things they don't support all the time, just like individuals do.

As it has been so perfectly pointed out before, corporations seem to be getting all of the perks of personhood, with none of the responsibilities. Being a citizen means that you have to pay for things the government does that you don't support. Being a corporation means that you have to pay for things your employees do that you don't support. Not all things, of course, but certain specific things that you are legally required to pay for. And privately-owned companies are the equivalent of private citizens (as opposed to public figures) - are you suggesting that only famous people should be bound by laws? If not, then you've missed the point of the analogy entirely.


But Corporations aren't people hadn't you heard. On top of that, your long equation of corporations paying taxes just like an individual is as flawed as flawed can be. FIrst of all we are talking about a tax here we are talking about forcing a private entity (the employer) paying another private entity (the insurer) to provide another private entity (the employee) with something, outside their obligation to pay them a wage for their services as an employee, that violates the employers religious views. In no way is there taxation happening there.

I'd argue against any government encroachment on running health care anyways but that is a whole other thread we'd have started because I simply do not agree that being a citizen means "that you have to pay for things the government does that you don't support." That's just something progs who are happy to plunder others' life energy to pay for their own stuff say IMHO.



Aielyn said:
SocialistSlayer said:
Aielyn said:
Churches are a special case, because they operate on a non-profit basis. And yes, YOUR religious freedoms go beyond the church... but it does not extend to being forced upon your employees.

Tell me, if I get a job working for a muslim, should they be able to force me to do prayers 5 times daily, facing Mecca? By your reasoning, my refusal to do so impacts upon their religious freedom, rather than being a case of me exercising my own. How is the case of paying for health insurance that covers contraception any different?

They should be able to.  Youre not forced to work for them.  
Unfortunately we don't have a free market

You're not forced to be an American citizen, either. Unfortunately, people can't choose not to work, and there aren't quite enough jobs to go around, so what you're basically saying is that, if people don't want to be forced to live by their employer's religious beliefs, then they should just go into poverty.

It's not like we're talking about high income employees who can easily afford to pay the costs of these things. We're talking about people working at minimum wage, who are barely able to make ends meet, and who need things like proper healthcare coverage but can't afford to pay the kinds of costs Americans have to put up with (Australia's healthcare is significantly cheaper, in part thanks to public health insurance for all).

No I'm saying go work for another company that doesn't have those policies. 

In a free market the company that had bad policies will go out of business due to no employees and no customers.  They will go to the better more fair company. 

And as an American citizen you are entitled to rights.  

Which so happens doesn't include free unearned money. 

A business should be free to do whatever it wants to its employees.  (12+ hr work day.  $1 a day.  Forced hijab uniform .etc) and guess what the market will decide if that's a viable business practice



 

S.T.A.G.E. said:
Scisca said:
Why the fuck would your employer be forced to buy you contraception!? My God! America, what the fuck is wrong with you?


Maternity leave maybe? It costs companies money to replace workers. The US does a great job of controlling birthrates. If people keep working it pumps more money through the economy. If you look at it based on our GDP and worker output for a industrialized nation the US works itself like race horses. One horse blows out their leg, replace them for good.


Yet another reason to thank the Lord for being European. Also makes you wonder how can some European countries manage to keep a human face and still get more GDP per capita than US.



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

Scisca said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Scisca said:
Why the fuck would your employer be forced to buy you contraception!? My God! America, what the fuck is wrong with you?


Maternity leave maybe? It costs companies money to replace workers. The US does a great job of controlling birthrates. If people keep working it pumps more money through the economy. If you look at it based on our GDP and worker output for a industrialized nation the US works itself like race horses. One horse blows out their leg, replace them for good.


Yet another reason to thank the Lord for being European. Also makes you wonder how can some European countries manage to keep a human face and still get more GDP per capita than US.


Higher taxes to balance out less work hours in the day. Americans keep most of their money but get less government funded benefits and have to pay for medical coverage themselves instead of it being universal. Obama is attempting to change that though. Certain European countries have government safeguards just incase maternity leave is needed working in tandem with your job to fund the leave.In America this doesn't exist.