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Forums - Sports Discussion - The Football Thread - 17/18 Season

Hiku said:
Goatseye said:
Hold on! You guys think that Barcelona of Pep at their highest had a bad defense?
With Puyol killing it, Pique less erratic, Dani Alves the best RB with Maycon at the time and a solid LB on Abidal a suspect defense?
Additionally, with a Swiss clock as a Defensive Midfielder, no one in their serious state of sanity can call Barcas defensive ability dubious at the time.

Puyol killing it in the rehab center, yeah. He spent more time there than on the pitch during his last few seasons, and instead we saw the horrible Mascherano in CD instead, and some times Busquets.
During 2010-11, Puyol just made it back after a long time injury for one of the Madrid clashes in the CL semi finals, only to instantly get injured again during the very same match, and gone again for months. And Abidal was, as you may recall, out for a long time during this season due to cancer treatment.

Before Pique joined, Puyol was much less injury prone, but was teamed up with the likes of Sylvinho and Milito... Ugh Milito, still gives me nightmares.
Alves was definitely the best RB, but more for his offensive capabilities. The way he played often created problems for the defense if they lost the ball. And you really don't want to get caught in the counter attack with Milito or Mascherano in center defense.

Guardiola said it as well that their defense was never good, but they made up for it with their offense and possession play.
Barcelona's defense has been notoriously lacking for quite a while, especially compared to other top clubs. They didn't even sign a single center defender ever since Pique until this season. They bought Mascerano and Song, who are naturally defensive midfielders, and tried to re-school them into becoming CD's instead, which didn't work.

Are sure it wasn't Marquez? Sylvinho was a left back and Milito barely played. Counter-Attack is an issue to any team that press high on pitch; Barca, Porto, Bayern, etc...

Mascherano in as a CD plays better than a lot of actual CD.

Dmytro Chygrynskiy was a center defender. Post Pep Barcelona doesn't acquire any CD, it has to fulfill their soccer phylosophy.

Barca did not buy Song and Mascherano to play CD. Mascherano just happened to be a phenomenal multi-talented player in at atime when Puyol was debilitated.

 



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Ka-pi96 said:
Goatseye said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Hence why I said Brazil at their best

The modern defensive Brazil are boring and just not that good anymore. Thankfully they were absolutely destroyed by Germany so hopefully they will see the error of their ways and return to the Brazil of old.

Brazil of old is the same as Brazil of today. They put little emphasis on defensive tactics.

They need to get with times or hire an European coach. Their coaches suck.

Germany beat them because their coaches couldn't, for their lives, get a cohesive defensive unit for ages.

Germany only impressed in that game. Up until that moment, it never revealed itself as a steam rolling machine.

Brazil of today is much more defensively focused than Brazil of old. How many good well known attacking Brazillian players are there these days compared to good well known defensive? There's not as many, while the very best Brazil teams have almost no memorable defenders or goalkeepers the recent teams have seemed to be centred around those types of players. While I agree their coaches suck I think that is because they are all overly defensive and not capable of playing the kind of good attacking football that Brazil are known for and that wins trophies.

Nothing changed my friend. Brazil stopped in the soccer evolution ladder for a long time.

They play with 2 Wing Backs, 2 Center Defenders, 2 Center Midefielders, 3 Attacking Midfielders and 1 Striker.

Old Brazilian squads had way more revered defenders than nowadays. Cafu, Geraldao, Branco, Lucio, Emerson, Taffarel, Maycon, Beletti, Roque Junior, Juan etc...

Brazilian defenders nowadays are not that very well fitted for European clubs or world tournaments.



Ka-pi96 said:
Goatseye said:

Nothing changed my friend. Brazil stopped in the soccer evolution ladder for a long time.

They play with 2 Wing Backs, 2 Center Defenders, 2 Center Midefielders, 3 Attacking Midfielders and 1 Striker.

Old Brazilian squads had way more revered defenders than nowadays. Cafu, Geraldao, Branco, Lucio, Emerson, Taffarel, Maycon, Beletti, Roque Junior, Juan etc...

Brazilian defenders nowadays are not that very well fitted for European clubs or world tournaments.

Out of those Brazilian defenders you listed I only recognise 3 of them (Cafu, Lucio and Beletti) and I'd consider all 3 of those to be modern Brazillian players, not from the Brazil of old.

As for Brazillian defenders nowadays isn't Thiago Silva often cited as one of the best defenders in the world? David Luiz is the most expensive defender of all time (really don't know why though ) isn't he?

Tiago Silva, Miranda and Danilo are the only respected Brazilian defenders nowadays.

Cafu was from 1994 WC squad, Lucio and Beletti are from 2002 WC squad.

Tiago Silva is the exception of the bunch, although Miranda is a good CD, not extraordinary. David Luiz... they don't talk about him.



Hiku said:
Goatseye said:

Are sure it wasn't Marquez? Sylvinho was a left back and Milito barely played. Counter-Attack is an issue to any team that press high on pitch; Barca, Porto, Bayern, etc...

Mascherano in as a CD plays better than a lot of actual CD.

Dmytro Chygrynskiy was a center defender. Post Pep Barcelona doesn't acquire any CD, it has to fulfill their soccer phylosophy.

Barca did not buy Song and Mascherano to play CD. Mascherano just happened to be a phenomenal multi-talented player in at atime when Puyol was debilitated.

 

Ah yeah, I meant Marquez. Mixed them up. And Milito didn't play much, yeah. But the problem was that when someone gets injured, Barca only had players of Milito's caliber on the bench, or they move other players down from their natural position into defense. Barca's defensive problems over the years basically came down to two things. Puyol's increasing injuries, and Pique's stagnating form. (He's been good this season, though.)
When Barca won CL last time for example, Puyol didn't even play half the CL games, and the ones he did were primarily in the group stages. With the substitutes Barca have, that's quite scary when moving on to the knockout stages. And that's what I've come to get used to over the years. Of course he wasn't there when Barca got slaughtered by Bayern two years ago either. Instead they had to use the very young and untested Marc Bartra.
And I was never fond of Mascherano in defense. He's usually late in challenges, awarding clumsy cards and penalties. He's a fantastic central midfielder though, as we saw in the World Cup. But I'm always worried when he plays in defense. Same with Song, Busquets, or whoever else gets forced to play there.

As for why they bought Mascherano and Song, since Mascherano and Busquets basically played the same amount of games each season since he came to Barca, and they played nearly all of their total matches, Mascherano spent the vast majority of that time in central defense, since Barca don't play two defensive midfielders at once.
Perhaps the primary intention was for him to be Busquets substitute, but it was barely ever neccesary, and instead he was constantly needed in central defense. So you'd have to ask yourself why Barca didn't buy a central defender for so many years when it was obviously much more needed than midfielders or forwards, who they had an abundance of, both from signings and from the youth system.
As for Song, I think in his case a big reason for why they bought him was to turn him into a CD, because with a midfield lineup of Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Cesc, Thiago and also potentially Mascherano, his chances of getting to play there weren't very high.
I always found that signing very strange.

Song was bought because Barcelona needed players with more physical presence than what they had.

A lot of teams at the time were roughing up Barcelona with pressure,physical challenges and they only had Iniesta, Xavi and Busquets for the fight.

Until last year, Barca wanted to give La Masia players the confidence to play at the highest level. They're very nationalist.



NiKKoM said:
outlawauron said:

. Also, Liverpool reportedly offered more money for Depay, so I don't think you can claim overpaying for him.

LOL... Liverpool... aren't they the one that paid £35 million for Andy Carrol? xD

Anyway:



Quite nice.



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Talal said:

Ronaldo destroyed there before even becoming a striker. Costa is doing about the same even with his never ending injury. Aguero is doing great. Torres did alright (with Liverpool :p). Teves did great. You can't cherry pick a few exceptions and draw conclusions. A lot of strikers actually say that scoring in the prem is easier because you have so much space (Suarez and Teves said something like that). I don't think that scoring in the prem is easier. I think that the style of the striker might lead him to do better or worse in certain leagues, but the myth that scoring in the Prem is harder is wrong.

That's why I said 'some'. Tell me, how has Falcoa done this season? What happened to Shevchenko? It is known that many footballers that do well in Europe struggle in the Prem, well sometime not struggle but get nowhere near the same performances. This said, I mainly want to see him in the Prem to see him in the Prem week in week out, I don't watch Spanish football. :P

Goatseye said:

Premier League teams with their shitty defense wouldn't be a bump for Messi.

I know right, Saints would be fine though. *hint hint, see the records for defence this season*



Hmm, pie.

The Fury said:

That's why I said 'some'. Tell me, how has Falcoa done this season? What happened to Shevchenko? It is known that many footballers that do well in Europe struggle in the Prem, well sometime not struggle but get nowhere near the same performances. This said, I mainly want to see him in the Prem to see him in the Prem week in week out, I don't watch Spanish football. :P

 

Wasn't him over 30 years old when Chelsea signed him and had several injuries?



Player2 said:
The Fury said:

That's why I said 'some'. Tell me, how has Falcoa done this season? What happened to Shevchenko? It is known that many footballers that do well in Europe struggle in the Prem, well sometime not struggle but get nowhere near the same performances. This said, I mainly want to see him in the Prem to see him in the Prem week in week out, I don't watch Spanish football. :P

Wasn't him over 30 years old when Chelsea signed him and had several injuries?

I think he joined at 29, his first season he played most games but didn't score many. Van Persie is currently older than that, has had serveral injuries while at Man U this season and still has more goals this season than Shevchenko did in 3 years in the Prem.



Hmm, pie.

The Fury said:
Talal said:

Ronaldo destroyed there before even becoming a striker. Costa is doing about the same even with his never ending injury. Aguero is doing great. Torres did alright (with Liverpool :p). Teves did great. You can't cherry pick a few exceptions and draw conclusions. A lot of strikers actually say that scoring in the prem is easier because you have so much space (Suarez and Teves said something like that). I don't think that scoring in the prem is easier. I think that the style of the striker might lead him to do better or worse in certain leagues, but the myth that scoring in the Prem is harder is wrong.

That's why I said 'some'. Tell me, how has Falcoa done this season? What happened to Shevchenko? It is known that many footballers that do well in Europe struggle in the Prem, well sometime not struggle but get nowhere near the same performances. This said, I mainly want to see him in the Prem to see him in the Prem week in week out, I don't watch Spanish football. :P


No, it is not a well known fact. It's what some Premier League fans want to believe. And that's what I meant by cherry picking a few, but you even did the cherry picking horribly. Falcao came off a major injury and after that he was not the same even before Manchester. Shevchenko was way past his prime. You should have listed Soldado (a popular choice for people who claim scoring in the prem is harder) for example.



The Fury said:
Player2 said:
The Fury said:

That's why I said 'some'. Tell me, how has Falcoa done this season? What happened to Shevchenko? It is known that many footballers that do well in Europe struggle in the Prem, well sometime not struggle but get nowhere near the same performances. This said, I mainly want to see him in the Prem to see him in the Prem week in week out, I don't watch Spanish football. :P

Wasn't him over 30 years old when Chelsea signed him and had several injuries?

I think he joined at 29, his first season he played most games but didn't score many. Van Persie is currently older than that, has had serveral injuries while at Man U this season and still has more goals this season than Shevchenko did in 3 years in the Prem.

29 almost 30, his birthday is in September. Age affects players differently (points to Pirlo). Shevchenko was never as good as he was in 200-2006 in Milan even after leaving the PL so it's questionable if he was any good when Chelsea signed him.