By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - the right to bear arms and how it can be used to defend from big government

Kasz216 said:

Oh really?   Huh.

Still Harry Reid is a corrupt dick.

The only reason he's is stil in office is because the republicans ran a woman who freaked out even some republicans.

No argument there.



Around the Network
-CraZed- said:

4th I also find it very silly how naive you are that A North Korea style government couldn't exsist over here should we relenquish or right to bear arms AND what do you think would happen to a dictator like Kim Jong Un or any of the other regimes you mentioned actually allowed their citizens/subjects to bear arms? Something tells me their regimes wouldn't last very long. Even in places where they have managed to gain access to firearms i.e. Syria the government uses chemical agents and other heavy arms to suppress them.

A pretty huge percentage of North Koreans end up bearing arms considering the size of their military.  Regimes in general don't get overthrown just because a bunch of disorganized people have a rifle in their closet.  Most succesful revolutions come with the support of at least part of the existing military and/or support of a foreign power.

The Kim's control on the DPRK is far stronger than Assad's was pre-civil war.  Even with significant defections and at least some measure of foreign support, Assad is still kicking after three years of fighting.



"Government land".

Legitimate property claims such as homesteading get thrown out of the window when the guys on the other side of the continent decide it's theirs, and they use guys with guns paid for with money taken from you to enforce their whim.

I don't know why anybody tries to do anything else. You have two choices in life: work for something and pray that somebody from "the Government" doesn't take it from you, or go and join the Government.



Kasz216 said:
Or for another TLDR,

The Founding Fathers wanted the USA to essentially be Switzerland before it was cool. (Or Switzerland existed)

Basically the founding fathers would hate the restrictions on the second amendment and REALLY hate the armed forces.

Switzerland actually gained independence in 1648, at the end of the 30-years-war

but i do see what you're going for.

My take on that is that it is terribly naive from a foreign policy perspective (that the founding fathers would think that way), but they seemed to be terribly idealistic in terms of foreign policy in the first place anyway.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

badgenome said:
Mr Khan said:

Moreover it's why the whole "free militia to protect FREEDOM!" part of the second amendment is silly. The crime prevention people have facts to back them up, the militia folks, not so much.

If the army fails to put down an armed rebellion of US citizens, it will be because the army itself refuses to do so (which happens a decent amount in dictatorships anyway. It's why the August Coup failed in the end of the Soviet Union: the Army refused to kill the Moscow protestors of the coup). And in that case, it is likely that the reason the army backs off is because the rebels have enough moral gravity to not merit being gunned down, but it is the moral standing of the rebels' cause, and not the mere fact that they are armed, which could force the state to back off.

It is equally paranoid to assume that it will ever reach the point where we would need such a rebellion in the first place. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility, yes, but so far out there that, if we ever reach that point, we'll likely have long since disposed of the second amendment anyway (and like burning phoenix said, regardless of the laws, people will find guns if they really need them, hence the basis of the arguments against gun control. That cuts both ways: if a rebellion really needed arms, a way would be found).

The power fantasies of the militia men are just that: rank delusions. Victories against tyranny are won in the court of public opinion, and not by snipers hiding out in the hills picking off G-men one at a time. Ironically, it's one of the ways in which the fringe right mirrors the fringe left, as the militia wingnut fantasies match the fantasies of left-wing "professional revolutionaries", of dedicated guerillas such as Kim, Mao, or Ho Chi Minh.

It's not only an increasingly overbearing government, but the fact that there is also increasing sectionalism (though in a mass media and communications world, it's less geographical and more cultural) to the point that our entire politics is based around trying to win control of said overbearing government just to spite the other side and force them to eat as much shit as they can over the next four years. At some point after the Civil War, the Tenth Amendment and the idea of states rights became demonized as a stalking horse for racists and neo-Confederacy, which is sad because it's the solution to so many of our problems. Not that I'm sure these people would go for it, anyway, because they are obsessed with spiting each other too much to want to get out of each other's hair and just live their lives. They want to slash the hated Other's throat, and drink his blood, and howl in victory... politically speaking, of course (for now).

Of course in a full fledged rebellion there would be no shortage of weapons. In a country that is swimming in guns like this one, even a full on repeal of the Second Amendment would never dry up the supply completely. But most decent people - which is to say most people - want to obey the law. The point of gun control is to make it such a hassle that those people won't even bother with them at all. A little "common sense" gun control here, an arbitrarily banned scary-looking type of gun there... oops, another shooting. That didn't work, so we'd better ban more stuff... It's not a serious attempt to stop mass shootings. No sane person can think such haphazard legislation is going to do that. It's an attempt to kill the Second Amendment by 1,000 cuts because they don't dare to take it on head on.

And the problem is that there's no telling just if or how or when things might progress from our cold Civil War to a low-grade not-so-cold one. I wouldn't necessarily expect it, and I certainly don't assume it's going to happen, but it's always a possibility and such things usually happen sooner than people think is even possible. It's completely unthinkable right up until it happens. As Ukraine is learning the hard way, no good comes from being disarmed. That goes double for being disarmed by people who hate you. It only invites aggression.

Ukraine has plenty of guns, though. Legally or illegally (not sure what their laws are, but a fair few have commented on Ukraine's relatively high gun ownership rate). Crimea i'd argue is more a case in point on my side: if they had tried to shoot back at the Russians, it would have given them excuse to kill or arrest anyone who looked at them funny.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Around the Network
-CraZed- said:
Mr Khan said:
-CraZed- said:

This story perfectly highlights how and why the right to bear arms is necessary to a free society. Most often those who oppose gun ownership or support extreme limitations on gun ownership often scoff at the notion that we need to be armed to protect ourselves from our own government and yet here you have our own governement with its armed bureaucracies (even bringing in Army Rangers!) harassing a citizen and his family, confiscating their livelihood and supressing and attempting to reduce the areas in which citizens could protest their actions peacefully.

The 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting or firing for sport or even so much about self preservation during the perpetration of a violent crime but to ensure that the people could outright and swiftly defend themselves against a tyrannical government.

Kudos to this rancher and all those who showed up to support him.

A tyrannical government who could blow them the fuck away, swiftly and with extreme prejudice if they so chose.


So basically your argument is that the right to bear arms is trumped by the superiority of firepower of the federal government? Or is it your assertion that the federal government SHOULD possess the ability to summarily exterminate its citizens with "extreme pejudice?"

Le sigh...

My point is that if it really came down to the nightmare scenario the militia wingnuts are so scared of: they would lose. Laughably badly.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Or for another TLDR,

The Founding Fathers wanted the USA to essentially be Switzerland before it was cool. (Or Switzerland existed)

Basically the founding fathers would hate the restrictions on the second amendment and REALLY hate the armed forces.

Switzerland actually gained independence in 1648, at the end of the 30-years-war

but i do see what you're going for.

My take on that is that it is terribly naive from a foreign policy perspective (that the founding fathers would think that way), but they seemed to be terribly idealistic in terms of foreign policy in the first place anyway.

Generally it seemed like the Founding Fathers didn't care about foreign policy outside of having enough force to make sure the british weren't hijacking they're sailors/pirates weren't hijacking their ships.



Mr Khan said:
badgenome said:

Ukraine has plenty of guns, though. Legally or illegally (not sure what their laws are, but a fair few have commented on Ukraine's relatively high gun ownership rate). Crimea i'd argue is more a case in point on my side: if they had tried to shoot back at the Russians, it would have given them excuse to kill or arrest anyone who looked at them funny.


You'd think so... but actually they have a very small amount of guns.

The Ukraine has about 3 Million private guns (Both Legal and illegal) for a population of 45 Million which is an ownership rate of about 6.6%.

http://nocera.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/the-gun-report-february-21-2014/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

 

In Comparison, France has over 30 guns per 100.  

Greece 22,

Belgium 17.

Hell Russia is sitting at nearly 9%

 

Though we like to think of the USSR as having just surplus AK47's floating around everwhere after the collapse, the USSR ad it's successor states had some of the strictiest gun controls ever.


Compare that to the rest of the world and....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country



-CraZed- said:

This story perfectly highlights how and why the right to bear arms is necessary to a free society. Most often those who oppose gun ownership or support extreme limitations on gun ownership often scoff at the notion that we need to be armed to protect ourselves from our own government and yet here you have our own governement with its armed bureaucracies (even bringing in Army Rangers!) harassing a citizen and his family, confiscating their livelihood and supressing and attempting to reduce the areas in which citizens could protest their actions peacefully.

The 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting or firing for sport or even so much about self preservation during the perpetration of a violent crime but to ensure that the people could outright and swiftly defend themselves against a tyrannical government.

Kudos to this rancher and all those who showed up to support him.

I guess us Australian better go back to work before our tyrannical government shoots us all for taking time off to read radical paranoia LOL.



 

 

Mr Khan said:

Ukraine has plenty of guns, though. Legally or illegally (not sure what their laws are, but a fair few have commented on Ukraine's relatively high gun ownership rate). Crimea i'd argue is more a case in point on my side: if they had tried to shoot back at the Russians, it would have given them excuse to kill or arrest anyone who looked at them funny.

I didn't mean guns. I meant nukes. Ukraine gave up their real nukes in exchange for fake assurances about their territorial integrity.

Crimea is really its own situation that is neither here nor there. The population is largely Russian and, except for the vehemently anti-Russian Tatars, generally pro-Russian. While the referendum was a joke, I don't really doubt that Russia would have won handily. They just shouldn't have made it so ridiculously lopsided in the final tally, at least if they wanted to look credible to the rest of the world. However, I don't think that was their goal. I suspect the North Korea style returns were intended more for the Russian audience that Putin is whipping into a jingoistic fervor than for the international audience, which doesn't matter because it isn't going to do anything about it anyway.

Had the Tatars staged an armed revolt, of course the Russians would have crushed them, and gladly. I think this is rather different from jelly-spined western countries, where the governments are capable of terrible brutality but are compelled to look and feel like they're on the side of the angels. Russia, for better or worse, has a world view rooted in hard-nosed realism. The west, and the American government in particular, has a silly and sometimes dangerous messiah complex.