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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is Socialism Anti-American?

 

Is it?

Yes 85 28.72%
 
NO 183 61.82%
 
Opinion below 8 2.70%
 
other 13 4.39%
 
Total:289
sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
Socialism is not foreign to America. In colonial times there were many socialist experiments. They all failed, of course. Nevertheless, socialism (at least most forms of it) is antithetical to individualism, and individualism is much more ingrained in American culture. That is why you see such opposition. For the first 300 years of American history, the political landscape was split between individual anarchists, and classical liberals. It only makes sense that the progressivism of the last 100 years has had a hard time to drastically alter such a landscape (honestly it has been more effective than what one would predict beforehand.)

 

Individualism falls apart as an ideology for those who are made to live their lives as little better than machinery with organs.

Yet it was the conclusions of individualism which brought individuals to prosper in the enlightnement and afterwards, and only collectivism which has reversed the process, since. The opportunity for individuals to have the freedom to act, within the constraints of their rights, has led to prosperity, while the forceful reduction of these rights has led people back to destitution (note: all applications of total socialism: from the U.S.S.R to modern day Venezuela.) Individualism succeeds for these people as well, because it enables them to traverse economic and social strata. 

But only within the practical limitations of the economy. There is not room for everyone to succeed all the time, and those who fall upon misfortune should not endure pitilessness merely in the name of "freedom." While there is hardly a dichotomy between liberty and food, or liberty and security, the definition of liberty that allows one man to hoard his food and deprive it to all others is just as odious as the definition of liberty that lets you break out the shotgun and have a go at pedestrians.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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No. Capital America is anti socialism though. Socialism is not as bad as Americans think it is.



America has historically been a country run by rich middle aged white men who will do whatever it takes to ensure the self interests of rich white men are maintained. Rich white men have successfully used their power and influence to spread propaganda that Socialism/Communism is bad and Capitalism is good. European nations have been designed to distribute wealth through taxation, improve living standards(minimum wage, Universal Health care, Universal Education, etc) and provide equal opportunity for all people regardless of their gender and ethnicity.



Socialism is anti-fairness and anti-moral when it becomes a tool of the state to plunder it's citizens. Socialism in itself is fine as long as it is between consenting parties.

Heck, if you want to live under communism in this country I say you have the right to do so but to make it or socialism as a public policy is definitely Anti-American.



Socialism goes against the very thing that the founding fathers wanted so yes it is very un-American



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DevilRising said:
What an incredibly dumb question to ask. And I'm sorry, the people answering "yes" are also dumb. Saying that any political philosophy short of facism is "unamerican" or "anti-american", goes against the very point and foundation of this country. Where people could be FREE to believe and practice whatever they wished. That didn't just mean religion, it also meant social and political beliefs.

I am a "Democratic Socialist", and I'm proud of that. I don't make a big deal of it, but I'm also not ashamed of it, and why should I be? To me, "socialism" means caring more about the overall good of the people, than the good of the government or big business. To me, "socialism" merely means caring about more than just yourself or your immediate circle. And I think quite a LOT of Americans have a very skewed and incorrect view of what socialism as a philosophy actually is. It has nothing to do with politics. It is a set of socio-economic ideals and values.

So stating that "socialism is anti-American", is outright stupidity. I'm sorry if that upsets some people, but it's the truth. People in America are allowed to believe and think however the fuck they want, and the only thing that would be TRULY "anti-American", would be someone actively trying to deny people that right.

Of course people should be free to believe what they wish, but that freedom ends when you're forcing your beliefs upon others, which is the cornerstone of any statist ideology.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

sc94597 said:
bonzobanana said:
Aura7541 said:
Socialism has already existed in America long before Obama took office. Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and the US military are socialist programs. Republicans have been using "socialism" as a soundbite without even considering what its true definition really is. So yeah, socialism is not anti-American at all.


US military is a socialist  program?

As a libertarian, I wholeheartingly say, yes it is. Is there a free market in national defense? No. Is national defense paid for with taxation by a government? Yes. Is it socialist, then? Yes. In fact, national defense is the most (and first) socialist market  found in the United States. The political landscape before the mid 1800's was opposed to a national, standing, socialist,  military, and was for voluntary, free-choice, militias. 

That doesn't work for me. I understand the defence of the US population from foreign invaders could be seen as socialist or protecting society but then the military can also be used in aggressive ways that can de-stabilise the world and actually be a cause of damage to that society. Also those who fight in the military you could say are potentially sacrificed  so not good for their place in society (i.e. dead).

Also the military command structure is about very powerful people at the top and bullet fodder at the bottom not really designed around socialist principles of shared responsibility or common ownership etc. Not that I would ever suggest that you could have a military force managed by socialist principles.

There is this comment on the wiki page;

This article is about socialism as an economic system and political philosophy. For socialism specifically defined as a stage of development in Marxist theory, see Socialism (Marxism). For the concept where the state promotes the social and economic well-being of its citizens sometimes mistaken with socialism, see Welfare state.

 

As a british person my views are everyone should be entitled to equal health care, education, justice and other essential services as the ideal. However I believe totally in capitalism and that people who work hard, are inventive, highly skilled, enterprising etc should be rewarded.  The only exclusions clearly are violent criminals who by their actions become in my view sub-human and obviously should not have many of the same rights. Their freedoms should be severely limited too.

 



I doubt most people could even properly explain what "socialism" actually is. Or "communism" etc.

In practice, the term is being used so inconsistently, arbitrarily and wrong that most people think that it's about the same as "communism". And even if they knew absolutely nothing about communism, they'd know that "capitalism" is good, "communism" is evil, so the same must apply for "socialism".

But these words have little real world relevance. Even America has never been a true capitalism, just like there was never a country that actually had true communism.



bonzobanana said:

As a british person my views are everyone should be entitled to equal health care, education, justice and other essential services as the ideal. However I believe totally in capitalism and that people who work hard, are inventive, highly skilled, enterprising etc should be rewarded.  The only exclusions clearly are violent criminals who by their actions become in my view sub-human and obviously should not have many of the same rights. Their freedoms should be severely limited too.

Hey bonzobanana, the 1930s called - they want their ideology back...

*SCNR*



Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
Socialism is not foreign to America. In colonial times there were many socialist experiments. They all failed, of course. Nevertheless, socialism (at least most forms of it) is antithetical to individualism, and individualism is much more ingrained in American culture. That is why you see such opposition. For the first 300 years of American history, the political landscape was split between individual anarchists, and classical liberals. It only makes sense that the progressivism of the last 100 years has had a hard time to drastically alter such a landscape (honestly it has been more effective than what one would predict beforehand.)

 

Individualism falls apart as an ideology for those who are made to live their lives as little better than machinery with organs.

Yet it was the conclusions of individualism which brought individuals to prosper in the enlightnement and afterwards, and only collectivism which has reversed the process, since. The opportunity for individuals to have the freedom to act, within the constraints of their rights, has led to prosperity, while the forceful reduction of these rights has led people back to destitution (note: all applications of total socialism: from the U.S.S.R to modern day Venezuela.) Individualism succeeds for these people as well, because it enables them to traverse economic and social strata. 

But only within the practical limitations of the economy. There is not room for everyone to succeed all the time, and those who fall upon misfortune should not endure pitilessness merely in the name of "freedom." While there is hardly a dichotomy between liberty and food, or liberty and security, the definition of liberty that allows one man to hoard his food and deprive it to all others is just as odious as the definition of liberty that lets you break out the shotgun and have a go at pedestrians.

This is untrue though. The lives of the poor have been bettered also. This has been true steadily since the late 18th century. If you compare mercantilism (the equivalent of today's keynesianism, but protectionist) you notice that the poor were not only affected by the rich "hording", but also by the limitations the rich placed on them. After the transition to a more free-market (albeit not entirely free) the standards of living of the poor became better. Yes, there is a business cycle with depressions from time to time, but that is true of any economy. Again, compare practiced socialist countries with, say, Hong Kong, Singapore, 19th century U.S, etc, etc and you notice that the standards of living just don't compare. 

There is not room for everyone to succeed all the time, 

This sentence is the crucial sentence. There is NEVER room for everyone to succeed all the time, not because of free-markets or the rich hoarding wealth, but because of scarcity. How do we reduce scarcity? By production, which is practically why destitution is eliminated in every single moderately free economy in the world. Free-markets (or for some mostly free-markets with government influencing externalities - I don't believe in this, but some do) are the only means by which an economy can grow quickly enough to meet such a demand of having everyone succeed.