Forums - Politics Discussion - The Coming Obamacare Shock for 170 Million Americans

Soleron said:
spurgeonryan said:

What I do not understand about this system is....how does the federal government expect to make money? Or is this basically a welfare program?

1. Millions more people recieve preventative treatment, and full and timely care for serious conditions

2. These people are then able to go to work more fully and frequently

3. The increased tax revenue, decreased unemployment/disability/deprivation payments and reduced cost of repeat emergency healthcare offsets any additional expense

Please understand that this kind of welfare makes complete economic sense.


You'd be surprised actually.

The "medical care makes money" arguement actually mostly comes from just projections of lost hours etc.


It doesn't look at things from a grim actuarial point of view...

 

1.  People are actually pretty resilient.  Prevenative care and serious conditions tend to mostly just extend the backend of someones life.   Which coincidentally is when people are almost universally living off social security and medicaid.  Which people are getting on average far more out of then they put in while working.

2.  Poor people pretty much have to go to work no matter what shit is happening to them anyway, they can't afford not to.  Middle class people who don't go to the doctor now and miss work because of it still will because it isn't a problem of lack of access but a lack of willingness to go.  So the projections of increased hours are overexagerated by quite a bit.

3.  Not really... the health costs of the unhealthy actually cost less then the healthy, so all your really hanging your hat on is the phantom increased productivity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748884.html?_r=2


Which are overestimated for the reasons above, and further overestimated by the fact that nowhere in the world is really at "full employment" meaning that when those who die, die.  There are others just waiting to take over for them at their jobs.

Who previously were providing nothing to the economy, but actually racking up health costs.

If we're talking benefit to the government, it's generally best for people to die off once they hit retirement age, ala Logan's run.  Perhaps even a bit sooner so as to free up more spaces for young people.

It's a ghoulish way to look at it.  But it's not untrue.




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Kasz216 said:
Augen said:
I can only speak anecdotally, but my insurance went up 30% and my coverage became significantly worse to point it is pointless in 99% of scenarios. The main issue with healthcare here is it is so expensive so many people I know self medicate. Had seven stitches a few years back and it was $3000, $1700 after my old insurance paid $1300. How does that make any sense? Of course under new plan I would pay all of it so if I get cut I just get a scar now. It is easily the big thing we do far worse than so many other comparable countries.

I had a similar expierence.


My healthcare premium went up over 300% with no added benefits.

That said, i ended up on medicaid.  Not actually happy about it.

I'd rather pay for healthcare... but i'm not paying > 1 paycheck for it... and subsidies have a price floor... for whatever reason.

 

They may as well just go full out health coverage.   Rather then making it so tons of people have to pay more, just so a very small few can get cheaper health insurance that's probably still below the level they need.

 

 

 

 

Well, that seems to be the problem with a lot of the policies of this administration (other administrations, as well.)  They say they are doing this or that for the poorest of citizens, but in the end it barely helps them, and instead hurts the middle class.  Same goes for the large hike in minimum wage to ~$10 they want, as well.  Sure, the minimum wage going up seems great for those just starting, or those poor people who make only a little above minimum wage.  But, what happens is the cost of doing business goes up, so businesses have to raise prices on everything.  Eventually, the poor people realize they are barely able to afford more than what they previously did.  So, again, it hurts the middle class who are 100% not getting the same ~$3 raise the minimum wage folks got, so they can actually afford less.



So glad I live in Europe, here everyone is taken care of, for stiches I think that 10 bucks would be on the expensive side, 4 years ago I had knee surgery, I paid 80€ & most of that was the food! Same for education, 1 year in college is about 300/400€ depending on the cursus & the college. I really am not a fan of the American way: the land of oportunity as long as you are rich & healthy, the social ladder is missing a few steps over there...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n29CicBxZuw

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Soleron said:
spurgeonryan said:

What I do not understand about this system is....how does the federal government expect to make money? Or is this basically a welfare program?

1. Millions more people recieve preventative treatment, and full and timely care for serious conditions

2. These people are then able to go to work more fully and frequently

3. The increased tax revenue, decreased unemployment/disability/deprivation payments and reduced cost of repeat emergency healthcare offsets any additional expense

Please understand that this kind of welfare makes complete economic sense.

Unfortunatley what you stated simply isnt true, but it sells the law.  Preventative care has been shown not to reduce health care costs but actually increase them because as with all top down operations everybody gets screened for everything and the preventative measures just end up costing more money than if you just went to the doctor for the serious illness, thats why all the big medical companies and insurance providers love prevantative care, they can charge you more co-pays and doctors can charge outrageous prices for literally nothing, its a win, win for healthcare, unless of course you are the consumer.

 

europe is running away from national healthcare as they realize they cant afford it, but thats the great part of socialized anything it always takes several generations to run out of other peoples money so eventually everyobe forgets where the problem started.

Like it or not the solution is less government intervention and greater interaction between doctor and patient...the trend has already begun with doctors walking away from socialized schemes to create their own group plans.  Dont be surprised to see the government try and outlaw this practice in the next few years in the name of equality.

 

like 



Game_God said:

So glad I live in Europe, here everyone is taken care of, for stiches I think that 10 bucks would be on the expensive side, 4 years ago I had knee surgery, I paid 80€ & most of that was the food! Same for education, 1 year in college is about 300/400€ depending on the cursus & the college. I really am not a fan of the American way: the land of oportunity as long as you are rich & healthy, the social ladder is missing a few steps over there...

It's taken care of because you're paying for it in another way.  >_>



As someone who does not believe in Obama-care for either economic or moral reasons I want as many people as possible to sign up for it so when the problems begin to mount up people will start to look at government as not a solver of problems but the largest cause of problems in modern society today. Slightly beating even the problems caused by religion.

This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

Soleron said:
Sixteenvolt420 said:

No thanks, i'll pay the fine. I haven't had any healthcare for almost 20 years now anyways.

Will you expect the state to pay for your healthcare after age 65?

The government has never once paid for a single thing during its entire existence as it gains revenue through force for the tax slave population.

But the governments theft is no longer enough to pay for its spending so now it has resorted to building up massive debt the our generations children will likely have to pay off.

However they future generations will be unable to pay the taxes that are required to pay the debt and America (and likely other European nations) will default and the economy which has needed a proper recession for decades will go into a real depression.

In other words if you are hoping the government will be around to pay your healthcare when you turn 65 you are likely in my opinion to be dissapointed.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

outlawauron said:
Game_God said:

So glad I live in Europe, here everyone is taken care of, for stiches I think that 10 bucks would be on the expensive side, 4 years ago I had knee surgery, I paid 80€ & most of that was the food! Same for education, 1 year in college is about 300/400€ depending on the cursus & the college. I really am not a fan of the American way: the land of oportunity as long as you are rich & healthy, the social ladder is missing a few steps over there...

It's taken care of because you're paying for it in another way.  >_>


Correct, everybody contributes over here.



the2real4mafol said:
Should of just funded the healthcare with taxes like the UK. You lot are only paying for a bloated army right now, a couple wars and some fascist mass spying organisations. Good priority of American government with so many in poverty!


American Poverty = Living in better conditions than most of the world with an opportunity to get out of poverty



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I dunno really much about this whole thing, but I feel like the free market will take care of this price increase.
If I were an insurer, I'd just keep the same rates and eat all the other insurer's dropouts.

I really don't understand why they are going up in premiums.