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Forums - Politics Discussion - Obama: Ignoring Russian Aggression Would Have Global Consequences

 

What does Obama hope to accomplish? alterior motive?

I will post below. 29 14.29%
 
To calm the situation down 67 33.00%
 
See results 100 49.26%
 
Total:196

International law is not perfect but it is the only mean we have to curb the law of the strongest.

Either we enforce the few rational agreements which help stabilize the world such as the one protecting Ukraine for having given up on it's nuclear weapons or we give up on international law.

Forget it's Putin and forget it's Obama which are the most vocal here.

Also, Russia is weakening demographically and economically. The most educated Russians are leaving the country, those who stay are even more easy to manipulate. And somehow, the countries that partner with it suffer the same fate. No wonder Ukrainians want to get rid of Russian ties.



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SubiyaCryolite said:
Nem said:
I agree in essence. Letting Russia occupy Crimea or Ukraine by force would open a terrible precedent for other nations to illegally occupy whatever they think belongs to them.

Its important to make sure that everyone understands that international law and agreements are to be respected.
And yes i know, that there are economic interestes and bad exemples from the US, but that doesnt make Russia right. Two wrongs dont make a right, despite beeing completely different. As anexation and intervention are not the same.

Like Israel?

Was waiting for somebody to say that. But yeah Israel has been breaking international laws for years, wonder when people are going to stop that country.



PSN ID: clemens-nl                                                                                                                

I don't know about any of you guys, but this whole situation has somewhat of a striking resemblance to how the world dealt with Germany after World War 1. We even have America involved in nearly the same way.

Anyhow, I think Obama is right about something needing to be worked out over this. Has Obama handled it all too well? Hmm... not necessarily, but our next President and the rest of the world definitely need to make all the right decisions over this.



I actually don't even see what Putin is doing wrong at all. Crimea voted about becoming part of Russia again, and the vast majority of the population voted in favor. Which was to be expected, since Crimea had historically almost always belonged to russia, and it's population is vastly russian. It was Cruschtschow who made Crimea part of Ukraine, and even his own son believes that it was for purely economic reasons and only because Cruschtschow was convinced that Ukraine and Russia would always be united anyway.

On the other hand, I can understand that the US is a bit pissed right now. From what we know from the leaked Nuland conversations etc., the US had already spent 5 billion dollars trying to shape Ukraine the way they like, with the help of people like the extreme right Swoboda fascists. But now russia and the crimean population kind of crossed their plans. I guess this time, actual democracy was stronger than "endowment for democracy", if you know what I mean.



ArnoldRimmer said:
I actually don't even see what Putin is doing wrong at all. Crimea voted about becoming part of Russia again, and the vast majority of the population voted in favor. Which was to be expected, since Crimea had historically almost always belonged to russia, and it's population is vastly russian. It was Cruschtschow who made Crimea part of Ukraine, and even his own son believes that it was for purely economic reasons and only because Cruschtschow was convinced that Ukraine and Russia would always be united anyway.

On the other hand, I can understand that the US is a bit pissed right now. From what we know from the leaked Nuland conversations etc., the US had already spent 5 billion dollars trying to shape Ukraine the way they like, with the help of people like the extreme right Swoboda fascists. But now russia and the crimean population kind of crossed their plans. I guess this time, actual democracy was stronger than "endowment for democracy", if you know what I mean.


They said nothing of the sort.  Don't drift off into Alex Jones territory now.

The reason nobody made a big deal about the Nuland conversations except "Fuck the EU" is because that was the only actual thing in it that was anything news worthy.

The rest of what people try and take from it is just hyperbolic exagerrations of a normal conversation.

There is nothing in the Nuland converseation that suggests the US had anything do with anything that happened in the Ukraine.

 

and i'm guessing th Etc. is the faked Klitcshko emails.  Where a government employee emails Klitchsko with the eastern europeon equilvent of AOL.  As opposed to a government account, or even a CIA account.  Because clearly people conduct political intrigue over private email servers that can be monitored eaisly by the private companies at their own discretion... and leaving a trail for as long as they want to store the emails.


Your bias is making you miss some pretty obvious stuff... it's fun to think the worst of the US and that it's behind EVERYTHING, but really... seriously?

 

There is enough to complain about that to latch on to some silly stuff like your trying to draw connectiongs between the rothcilds and the illuminati controlling everything.

 

You don't believe that right?  The Rothchild consiracy theory stuff?  If so... I'm just not going to bother.



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Kasz216 said:

They said nothing of the sort.  Don't drift off into Alex Jones territory now. 

The reason nobody made a big deal about the Nuland conversations except "Fuck the EU" is because that was the only actual thing in it that was anything news worthy.

The rest of what people try and take from it is just hyperbolic exagerrations of a normal conversation.

There is nothing in the Nuland converseation that suggests the US had anything do with anything that happened in the Ukraine.

Sure, Kasz, because the States are known for not interfering in foreign countries internal affairs and people's personal lifes that far, far, faaaar outreach usual diplomatic and legal range of actions :D

Yes, that specific conversation is nothing of interest for the most part, but pieces fall into place if you take into account Yakimenko's testimony. Of course, there's a chance he's lying, but I'm afraid you're expecting too much if you want evidence that could be taken into court.

You know, I don't usually support "blame the Americans" kind of attitude. Say, I know that wasn't Americans who ruined Libya, Libyans did, but in order to ignore the obvious you have to stick your fingers into your ears, close eyes and scream "la-la-la, don't hear anything, don't see anything, conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy".

 

//With that being said, I do watch American media on the subject sometimes, even though I watched enough to have an idea what to expect, yet  from time to time when they in "attack" mode on given hot topic  they manage to amuse me with the ability to create an alternate reality millions live in,  acting almost in unisone with Ukrainian meda right now, which I watch too btw. There's smth Orwellian in all this, so Alex Jones might not be that "nuts" as people might want to describe him, he's just minding his own "geschaft" parasitizing on people's minds and channelling them into one direction.



BTW how come nobody mentioned Obama's blunder over Kosovo in that speech he made in Brussels? Even though how for the most part pointless these talks about international law are, let's be honest the US always acted like "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi", yet it's adorable!

Just google "Obama Brussels rewriting history" :D Official MID statement *trollface*



Kasz216 said:

They said nothing of the sort.  Don't drift off into Alex Jones territory now.

Eh... Who the hell is Alex Jones?

Kasz216 said:

The reason nobody made a big deal about the Nuland conversations except "Fuck the EU" is because that was the only actual thing in it that was anything news worthy.

Maybe not where you live, but in my country, a lot of people do consider it a big deal. Reading articles on the topic on websites of prominent national mass media was quite bizarre in that respect. While most media over here concentrated solely on the silly and irrelevant "Fuck the EU" phrase, it was extraordinary just how many reader comments below the articles found the 5 billion dollars and the fact that the US apparently tries to decice who should be ukrainian president much more disturbing.

But that's a generally interesting phenomenon over here btw: There are extremely many people complaining about the current national mass media coverage of the crimea crisis. I've never seen anything like it, so many people feel that the national mass media currently do a very bad job at objectively informing about the topic. Many people currently actually feel better informed by "Russia Today", which is almost funny since most people are perfectly aware that it's pretty much "russian state television" and there is still significant russia-phobia in german society ("Der Russe steht vor der Tür!"). There are already petitions for a german language version of "Russia today"...

Kasz216 said:

There is nothing in the Nuland converseation that suggests the US had anything do with anything that happened in the Ukraine.

Even if that were true, there was also nothing in the Nuland conversation that suggests the US had nothing do with it either. As I said, while the "5 billion" and "no Klitschko please" comments are no of course no clear proof of anything, many people made up their own opinion about it. Especially since there are other articles etc. that fit well into the picture.

There's also no proof that this phone conversation (like the other recent ones with Timoschenko etc.) etc. was wiretapped and leaked by some russian intelligence service. And yet, people over here are convinced that they are responsible, even though they will probably never openly admit to it.

Kasz216 said:

and i'm guessing th Etc. is the faked Klitcshko emails.  Where a government employee emails Klitchsko with the eastern europeon equilvent of AOL.  As opposed to a government account, or even a CIA account.  Because clearly people conduct political intrigue over private email servers that can be monitored eaisly by the private companies at their own discretion... and leaving a trail for as long as they want to store the emails.

What Klitschko emails are you referring to? I cannot remember having read about that, can you give me a link?

Kasz216 said:

Your bias is making you miss some pretty obvious stuff... it's fun to think the worst of the US and that it's behind EVERYTHING, but really... seriously?

There is nothing in my posting that suggests I consider the worst of the US and that it's behind EVERYTHING.

Kasz216 said:

There is enough to complain about that to latch on to some silly stuff like your trying to draw connectiongs between the rothcilds and the illuminati controlling everything.

 

You don't believe that right?  The Rothchild consiracy theory stuff?  If so... I'm just not going to bother.

Sorry, you lost me once again. Rothschild conspiracy? I have no clue what you're even talking about. I've heard about the illuminati of course, but from what I know they only existed about a decade, and that was centuries ago - so what exactly should they have to do with crimea? and why?

Confusing your lines are, young padawan.



thranx said:
I think Obama has nailed the coffin for dems in the next election with how he dealt with Russia. He has made the US look weak. He has shown how naive he is if he thinks russia will stop there, how many land grabs have they done in the last decade? seems like its been stepping up not winding down. I also have to say Sarah Palin said it well, if the United States stops helping out other countries, if we take a back seat, someone will fill that void, and its most likely Russia and China. So the question is how safe do europeans feel with having Russia and China calling the shots over there? I dont think many europeans would want that. I could be wrong, i'm not european, but I wouldn't feel safe with a countries that have been on land grab sprees and military build ups on my front door step unless we are close allies already.


I'm european and i don't want the US "helping" us out just as much as i don't like russia and china trying to exert influence.

The US doesn't "help out", the look after their own interests.

And while, if i had to choose which of those "superpowers" took control, I'd probably think of the US as the lesser evil (haveing been raised with a western mindset and all, other people might choose different) i'd still prefere for all of them to mind their own buissnes (unfortunately that's not gonna happen).

As for crimera i couldn't care less if it now belongs to russia or not. I'm from switzerland though and not ukraine so it doesn't concern me all that much, but i don't think anyone here expects russia to try and swallow any more terretory tha crimera. As far as i understand they did it to secure a military base and sea acces (or something) and the people there voted on it and seem to want to belong to russia.

but that's just my 2 cents....



huiii said:

The US doesn't "help out", the look after their own interests.

Exactly. The US acts according to selfish interests, just like any other country. All the other talk about human rights, democracy and what not is mainly just silly talk for the public ear.

huiii said:

As for crimera i couldn't care less if it now belongs to russia or not. I'm from switzerland though and not ukraine so it doesn't concern me all that much, but i don't think anyone here expects russia to try and swallow any more terretory tha crimera. As far as i understand they did it to secure a military base and sea acces (or something) and the people there voted on it and seem to want to belong to russia.

That's pretty much my own impression as well. No one here in germany seems to believe that Russia now tries to swallow any more land, but the yellow press like BILD seems to be doing the best they can to drive such fears, for example by showing maps that shall demonstrate in which order they might now take the rest of europe, or portraying Putin as "the next Hitler". It's completely ridiculous! Is the media coverage in switzerland better?