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FF13 Sucks... here's why.

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LemonSlice said:
gooch_destroyer said:
Yuna>Lightning


Rikku > all

My nickname on VGChartz is Xen and I approve of this message.



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TornadoCreator said:
RenCutypoison said:

Why spending so much time playing and analysing a game you clearly hate ?

Games are about having fun, not expressing your hate.


Because the Final Fantasy series is one of my all time favourite series of games, particularly 7 and 8 which are my favourite video games period. This game was therefore a massive let down and was genuinely upsetting for me because the series meant so much to me, (hell, a part of me is still hoping beyond hope that FFXV won't suck the hairy balls of satan).

...so there's that and, well, ranting and expressing disappointment is cathartic. It's good to get it out and scream about something that pisses you off. Also, a part of me wants other people enraged because maybe, just maybe, there's an outside chance that Squeenix will realise that they can't make games worth a shit any more and they'll go back to what they used to do. I'm even tentatively optimistic as Bravely Default proved they're not totally hopeless.


Ok, I get your intentions ^_^

I don't agree with your analysis tough.

Your first point is that the game is bad because story makes no sense. You explain coherence problems, mostly because of misunderstandings (that Wright explains well). But even without that. Does the universe need to be 100% coherent for a story to be enjoyed ? For example in FFX, Al Bhed have been there for a thousand year studying awesome technology but there is still one airship made by one man and no one seems to be able to compete with that in their community. And he only appears when you need it, despite his daughter clearly needing it. This didn't bothered me at all, I loved FFX story.

Now for the second point, level design. Yes it's linear. Now, do J-RPG need big open world map ?

Long ago, RPG in video game was invented. It was inspired by tabletop RPG, in wich you have a lot of freedom to tell your story.

But with time passing, RPG took two different path, western and japanese. Western RPGs are still a lot like tabletops ones, where you create your character, choose your path etc. While J-RPGs try to tell a story. The story chosen by the devs. And at some point, FXIII story needed to be told in "straight fuckin lines", because it's cocoon. And Cocoon is a urbanized jail. And you need to feel claustrophobic to get that amazing sense of freedom in Pulse, because that's what Pulse really means for humanity in XIII.

I agree with you on upgrading weapon, I actually didn't do it before post game.

But I love combat. It's not about auto or manual mode, that's your choice there. But paradigm shift system was awesome IMO, and I liked to try getting 5 stars on each and every battle. And I had fun.

The crystarium was limited, and that was annoying, but choosing between specialty was good enough. Trying to maximize the system is fun too BTW.

I hate random encounters. Play DDS or SMT and you'll probably feel the same. So i'll leave it there.

Finally, I wasn't bored during the playtrough, and had pretty clear objectives most of the times. Except on Pulse, but that's pretty much how the characters feel it too. Of course it was still kinda annoying.

 

Points you forgot : Amazing OST, good length overall, lack of minigames, great character design (totally subjective), great artstyle and graphics in general.



Wright said:

You made my char go back to Majula to be safe while I reply to this thread >_>

 

First of all, no games in this world "sucks". I consider that, if a game manages to be of the likeness of just one player, it doesn't suck. And I doubt there's a game out there that isn't appealing to a single person. Of course this is my own personal definition, I just find "suck" to be a big word, especially considering developer's effort into crafting a game.

 

Okay, that's out of the place, let's analise what you wrote.


Fair enough, I'm personally of the mind that if the shoe fits...

Sure you say there was effort in crafting, but so what. They're crafting a peice of artistic media and releasing it to the public. Critique is important, and was in ancient Greek times considered in itself an art-form. To refuse to admit objective quality is to lack conviction and that's surely insulting the ability of the creator to accept reality. Are we all so fragile we can't admit that something we do is no good. I can't sing, so I don't sing (at least not in public). Should I record some music and be offended when someone tells me I'm no good?The fact is, there is a mark of objective quality. I don't like Bioshock, or Call Of Duty 4: Modern Warfare; but I know they're good games that simply don't appeal to my tastes. Final Fantasy XIII is objectively a bad game. This is a fact, people can argue against it if they like, but they're wrong; the game fails at providing an engaging narrative or realised world in which you play a role, it fails at the ultimate aim any RPG is attempting to achieve. Now, is it OK to like a bad game? Sure, I like films, TV shows and games that are objectively bad in at least some way, but I overlook the flaws because there's an aspect I enjoy. When it comes to FFXIII though, I cannot find a single thing about it of note worth praise. It is bad; from beginning to end and it infuriates me

Wright said:

I'd like to go in-depth with everything you wrote, but I can't (problem with time were I live) so I'll just cherry-pick some things you wrote. Hope you don't mind.

 

The Story.

 

· There's two kinds of L'Cie (so one kind isn't feared): Cocoon L'Cie and Pulse L'Cie. The Party is Pulse L'Cie. Cocoon's L'Cie aren't feared.

· Sazh's kid focus was to find L'Cie. Not Sazh particulary, (he was supposed to find Fang and Vanille, that's the kids focus, since Fang and Vanille were attacking the base and the Fal'Cie had no means to defend himself, so he made Dahj a L'Cie. He later finds his father, which makes him complete his focus, since his father is a L'Cie now).

· They free themselves from the curse once Fang becomes Ragnarok. That's why their L'Cie brands disappear.

· The world was umbalanced. Killing all humans would be a reason enough to make the God from Lightning Returns come back and see the disaster, which was Barthandeus plan all along.

· L'Cie aren't supposed to be different than normal humans, so that's why Sazh and Vanille go back to normal civilization. They have no reason to fight for Lightning's cause and so want to enjoy themselves. Then Dahj shows up and Sazh gets ultimately screwed.

· Fang and Vanille sacrifice themselves as Ragnarok to save both Cocoon and Pulse. That's why they're the ones turned into crystal at the end. The rest of the party is free from the curse.


Minor details really... I was summerising the entire game, largely from memory, some bits may be a little less detailed or clear than people may like, but I have the storyline pretty accurate considering how little text I used. Still... fair enough

Wright said:

2. Gameplay.

 

· I agree, the game is linear.

· Upgrade system could definitively use some kind of explanation. It was annoying as fuck.

· Combat is awesome. For me, at least. I can understand people getting annoyed at the system, but they game itself gave you two ways of playing it: auto-combat, or you choosing the actions command. It's up to the player.

Switching to paradigms, using items and getting ready for the enemy strike. There's gameplay here to be found. You need tactics and a certain degree of strategy. You still need to Libra enemies. You can poison them, or debuff yourself. There's ultimate techniques for each character. THere's depth here.

· It's up to you to choose a specialization for each character once you have the Crystaliarium. It is pretty doubtful that you have EVERYTHING maxed out by the time you hit Barthandeus. And still, the crystaliarium expands after that combat. You need gazilions of CP to max everything out. So it's there for a purpose.

· I liked this game and I read through everything you wrote :)


If you consider this "awesome" and find "depth" there, I honestly have to ask; and I mean this without meaning to sound patronising, how familiar are you with RPGs? Honestly, this game is painfully simple. The same tactic works for everything. Stay in standard formation till the enemy staggers, switch to an all out attack, when it's counter-attacking turtle up and heal... repeat until dead. Tactic number 2: Get "Army Of One"; Win.

There's no strategy needed outside of the most basic WoW style tank, healer, DPS builds. It's about as cookie cutter as you can get. Now, if you see the many different but ultimately similar powers as depth I suggest you look again. There's no problem solving. No tricky abilities, status elements, elemental attacks etc. to worry about. The game does all that for you. You can beat almost every encounter by simply holding down a button...

If you still like the game, good for you, but I cannot possibly understand why.



Nem said:
Yeah... i think at this point this will accomplish nothing. The people that like it just choose to ignore its shortcomings. I tried, but couldnt do it myself, but those that managed at least got their moneys worth. I felt completely robbed of 15 euros.


I borrowed the game from my cousin. Cost me absolutely nothing except time... which admittedly in this case was a rather steap price.



LemonSlice said:
gooch_destroyer said:
Yuna>Lightning


Tifa > all

Fixed.



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TornadoCreator said:

......

1. The Story Makes No Sense.

This is the basic plot of the game. Barthandelus is a powerful creature called a fal'Cie, he controls Cocoon, a dysonsphere thing floating in the sky where all the people live. The fal'Cie want to talk to God, for reasons never explained, they believe that killing everyone (including themselves) will make God appear because... again never explained, ......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWuwoPmHqnE&list=PLBCAFEE295216C73C

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2Gzgb9bgr0&list=PLBCAFEE295216C73C

just because you were so dissapointed by other aspects of the game that you were not able to see certain plot points does not mean they weren't there.



My short review:

+ graphics
+ atmosphere
+ music
+ gameplay (awesome fighting system)
+ characters (except one)
+ understandable main story
+ length
+ FMVs

- Hope (whiney bitch)
- not enough linearity (see Archylte Steppe)
- side quests
- still haven't fully understood the backstory

9.5/10



Barozi said:

My short review:

+ graphics
+ atmosphere
+ music
+ gameplay (awesome fighting system)
+ characters (except one)
+ understandable main story
+ length
+ FMVs

- Hope (whiney bitch)
- not enough linearity (see Archylte Steppe)
- side quests
- still haven't fully understood the backstory

9.5/10

Good one. 10/10



It's not that it was bad, it's just that as a Final Fantasy it's a complete and utter crap. And yeah the story didn't make sense... or maybe it did! But I will never know as you have to read the whole encyclopedia of the game to understand what the fuck is happening in it!



"I've Underestimated the Horse Power from Mario Kart 8, I'll Never Doubt the WiiU's Engine Again"

RenCutypoison said:
TornadoCreator said:
RenCutypoison said:

Why spending so much time playing and analysing a game you clearly hate ?

Games are about having fun, not expressing your hate.


Because the Final Fantasy series is one of my all time favourite series of games, particularly 7 and 8 which are my favourite video games period. This game was therefore a massive let down and was genuinely upsetting for me because the series meant so much to me, (hell, a part of me is still hoping beyond hope that FFXV won't suck the hairy balls of satan).

...so there's that and, well, ranting and expressing disappointment is cathartic. It's good to get it out and scream about something that pisses you off. Also, a part of me wants other people enraged because maybe, just maybe, there's an outside chance that Squeenix will realise that they can't make games worth a shit any more and they'll go back to what they used to do. I'm even tentatively optimistic as Bravely Default proved they're not totally hopeless.


Ok, I get your intentions ^_^

I don't agree with your analysis tough.

Your first point is that the game is bad because story makes no sense. You explain coherence problems, mostly because of misunderstandings (that Wright explains well). But even without that. Does the universe need to be 100% coherent for a story to be enjoyed ? For example in FFX, Al Bhed have been there for a thousand year studying awesome technology but there is still one airship made by one man and no one seems to be able to compete with that in their community. And he only appears when you need it, despite his daughter clearly needing it. This didn't bothered me at all, I loved FFX story.

Now for the second point, level design. Yes it's linear. Now, do J-RPG need big open world map ?

Long ago, RPG in video game was invented. It was inspired by tabletop RPG, in wich you have a lot of freedom to tell your story.

But with time passing, RPG took two different path, western and japanese. Western RPGs are still a lot like tabletops ones, where you create your character, choose your path etc. While J-RPGs try to tell a story. The story chosen by the devs. And at some point, FXIII story needed to be told in "straight fuckin lines", because it's cocoon. And Cocoon is a urbanized jail. And you need to feel claustrophobic to get that amazing sense of freedom in Pulse, because that's what Pulse really means for humanity in XIII.

I agree with you on upgrading weapon, I actually didn't do it before post game.

But I love combat. It's not about auto or manual mode, that's your choice there. But paradigm shift system was awesome IMO, and I liked to try getting 5 stars on each and every battle. And I had fun.

The crystarium was limited, and that was annoying, but choosing between specialty was good enough. Trying to maximize the system is fun too BTW.

I hate random encounters. Play DDS or SMT and you'll probably feel the same. So i'll leave it there.

Finally, I wasn't bored during the playtrough, and had pretty clear objectives most of the times. Except on Pulse, but that's pretty much how the characters feel it too. Of course it was still kinda annoying.

 

Points you forgot : Amazing OST, good length overall, lack of minigames, great character design (totally subjective), great artstyle and graphics in general.


We disagree on almost every point.

Yes a story needs to be coherant to be enjoyable which is why despite being a decent, well acted, well shot action film, "Elysium" is laughably bad and becomes worse the longer you think about it. The plot has such massive holes. Now sure, FFX had the same problems, and I consider FFX passable at best as I've said. It makes up for it's shortcomings, and at least it's linear nature is supported by story and atmosphere.

Do J-RPGs need an open map? Hell yes! Every single JRPG has either an open map or an active method by which you explore the world. Hell, it's a bloody trope of the genre, I expect an open map with towns, caves, dungeons etc. linking it all together.

Stories can be told without railroading, I should know, I've been running pen and paper roleplaying games for best part of a decade. Hell earlier Final Fantasies proved that well enough surely, they had additional areas, side quests, places to explore, and most importantly a vibrant world with people in it that felt alive; not just a corridor with save points in it.

Auto or Manual when I'll do exactly the same as the Auto because it's the obvious solution... that's not a choice, that's banality. If that's my choice, it sucks. I could crap a better combat system. As for choosing between specialities being "good enough", way to settle. In FFX, using the expert grid, (the only way worth playing), you can literally turn Yuna into a combat monster, Auran into your Black Mage, and Rikku into your Healer from practically the very beginning... I know I've done it. That's freedom. FFXIII doesn't even let you switch roles for the first 20+ hours, by which point you're so far specialised it'd take you the rest of the game practically to catch up. No-one changes specialisation in FFXIII, it's a lot of effort for no tangable reward.

Points I forgot apparently:

The music was OK, nothing really jumped out at me as special. Soft J-Pop mainly.

Good overall length is a fucking joke right? This game is about 80 hours longer than it needed to be. It would be too long at 20 hours. It's more padded than a pre-teens bra. Seriously, you can't honestly look at the fact that Squeenix wasted literally dozens of hours of your life you'll never get back and consider that a positive. It's a damning negative. It's a bowl of shit... I don't want a second helping!

Why is lack of minigames a good thing. Hell they go to a bloody amusement park and there's not even any mini games. Not even a Chocobo game, and it's a Chocobo themed park. I loved the minigames in Final Fantasy VII, and the card came in Final Fantasy VIII was great. Not having these things is another negative.

Great character design?! HA! Assymetrically dressed neon dance club rejects in trenchcoats is hardly what I'd call, "great design". This is only great design in Japan where fashion is basically whatever you can grab from Lady Gaga's wardrobe in the dark in 3 minutes. This is the country that adds random belts to outfits for no reason other than they can... they're not even holding anything up. Japan as a whole is a fashion black hole, and the worst part is they actually use Lightning as a fashion model on billboards over there... I'm not joking. Animated fashion models. I often wonder if this was considered before her role in the game, which is deeply depressing.

Really? Great graphics. Not really. They're passable I suppose, but they're no better than the average game of that year. Add in low quality textures in many areas, excessive clipping during battles, and a framerate that struggles to stay above 20fps. I'm not overly impressed. Sure the character models are good, and the pre-rendered cut-scenes are often really well made, but that's not saying much really.