Forums - Politics Discussion - Should a part of a country have the right to be independent? (also read OP)

Should a part of your country have the right to be independent or merge with another country?

Yes
Maybe/No opinion
No

A bit focused on the current events in Ukraine(Crimea). But I want us to focus on our personal opinions, not what our countries/international laws says or what our governments thinks.

If Heilongjiang, a Chinese province close to the Russian border in the north, wanted to merge with Russia or if Tibet or Taiwan wanted to be independent I personally would not have anything what so ever against this.

So, in your own country, do you personally think that a part/province/state should have the right to be independent or merge with another country if the majority of the inhabitants wants so?



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The problem is that not everyone in that part of the country would be for it. So if you don't want people to be relocated by force you have to be against it.

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Well, if the people from that state/province want independence then let them have it, but if I'm from a small country, or a weak country, or a country with few resources, then I wouldn't want part of my country to be independent.

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Yeah many factors to think of. Relocation, language, currency, ethnicity etc.

But also, everyone can never be 100% agreed on the same opinion, there will always be someone whom thinks differently.

So the majority should always have the last word in my opinion, democracy and all that you know. :P

wangjingwanjia said:

A bit focused on the current events in Ukraine(Crimea). But I want us to focus on our personal opinions, not what our countries/international laws says or what our governments thinks.

If Heilongjiang, a Chinese province close to the Russian border in the north, wanted to merge with Russia or if Tibet or Taiwan wanted to be independent I personally would not have anything what so ever against this.

So, in your own country, do you personally think that a part/province/state should have the right to be independent or merge with another country if the majority of the inhabitants wants so?

Taiwanese: "Dude, we are!"



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Someone already referenced the difficulty present for those who do not wish to be independent.

People who do not like things can leave, and find a country where they do like things. However, changing your national status forces this change upon people.

Additionally, for many countries there is an entitlement concern.

Crimea for example, imports approximately 80% of its electricity and water from the Ukraine. It has no overland routes to Russia (a bridge will take time and billions of dollars). The Ukraine did not want Crimea to take this vote, and by rights could now close their border and shut down all water and electricity exports, or charge exorbitant prices. In reality they wont do this. But Crimea has essentially demanded independence, whilst continuing to demand social and financial support - which is of course ridiculous.

That is a common problem with independence declarations. Though far more complex, there is a similar complication in Gaza.

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jigokutamago said:
wangjingwanjia said:

A bit focused on the current events in Ukraine(Crimea). But I want us to focus on our personal opinions, not what our countries/international laws says or what our governments thinks.

If Heilongjiang, a Chinese province close to the Russian border in the north, wanted to merge with Russia or if Tibet or Taiwan wanted to be independent I personally would not have anything what so ever against this.

So, in your own country, do you personally think that a part/province/state should have the right to be independent or merge with another country if the majority of the inhabitants wants so?

Taiwanese: "Dude, we are!"

Yeah, more than less. :P What I mean was in Taiwan's case is that if they choose to be/stay independent it's okay from my point of view. But it's still an ongoing discussion about this, in China and Taiwan, if there should be a unification in the future or a one country two systems-thing like with HK and Macao.



The problem is how you make the decision. Do only the residents of that part of the country have a say? what about the rest of the country's population? Don't they have a stake in maintaining the territorial integrity of the country? And what's the reason for seceding? If a wealthy part of a country wants to split from the rest that has a severe economic impact on the remainder of the country. What's the minimum land area that can secede? Can a neighbourhood secede? what about a City? or part of a province/state?

Every presidential election in the USA has people of one state or another gumbling about seceding. When GWB won a second term liberal states started grumbling about seceding, when Obama won a second term conservative states grumbled about seceding. Can people secede out of spite or for sour grapes? If you hold a referendum what sort of participation is required to legitimise the outcome? Is it incumbent on the agency running the process to ensure all cultural and ethnic groups are fairly represented among voters? Is a referendum valid if status quo is not an option? How can it be judged whether there are ulterior motives behind the secession? What is the history of the place?

Sure, the possibility of secession can be included within the legal framework of a country, but the basis for secession needs to be firmly established in law and not ad hoc or externally imposed by an outside aggressor looking to expand their influence, control or territory.

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I would basically place one of two conditions.

1) Ethnic Cleansing or Genocide. If that happens, clearly a secession should be possible, and actively supported by the international community.

Or some other huge discrimination.... the only one of which that's really relevant currently being the whole Palestine situation.



2) Lack of a National homeland.

So say, Scottish, Native Americans, Checyians, Baque, Kurds and Ugyurs.

Not Texans, Russian Crimeans, Albanians, etc.

 

 

So basically to allow a breakaway a country needs to either lose the right of the area through crimes or a group of people have to lack a country where they have self determiniation.

 

The main issue with just allowing any at all times succession is you have to decide what level of burden the leaving county takes... and it HIGHLY discourages helping other provinces and areas.

 

If I lived in New York, why would I agree to fund Georgian welfare federally knowing that they could leave at the drop of the hat.



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Countries have no rights.

Murray Rothbard - "Once one concedes that a single world government is not necessary, then where does one logically stop at the permissibility of separate states? If Canada and the United States can be separate nations without being denounced as in a state of impermissible ‘anarchy’, why may not the South secede from the United States? New York State from the Union? New York City from the state? Why may not Manhattan secede? Each neighbourhood? Each block? Each house? Each person?