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Forums - Politics Discussion - What does Putin want with Ukraine

 

What is his end state

Annex Ukraine As a whole 337 40.60%
 
Annex Crimea 286 34.46%
 
Defend Russian People Fro... 184 22.17%
 
Total:807
Sharu said:
I have some information that Russian satellite TV-channels are not translated anymore in France, Germany and Greece (Ukraine is the same long time ago). Can anybody check if itd true.

I've read articles about russian TV-channels now being censored/blocked in (parts of?) Ukraine, but not about russian TV-channels no longer being translated over here, in Germany. Then again, I didn't even know there were any russian TV channels over here, so it might be true, but I rather doubt it. I think it wouldn't have much of an effect anyway, as most people rather seem to get the "russian point of view" from online news websites anyway.

This has certain advantages anyway, as many people over here feel that the common german media currently do a very bad job at informing people. During the last weeks, there were many interesting news stories that were almost completely ignored by the common german media, it seemed like there was some kind of gag order or something. So people now use the internet to inform others about interesting news unreported by the popular media, by posting hyperlinks. There is a certain resemblance to the 1940s, when germans were secretly building their own radio receivers to be able to listen to american radio stations, to hear the news that the national german media were not allowed to report about.



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There's a lot of propaganda out there from both Western and Russian media outlets. Time to cut through the crap and report on the facts!

NATO has been expanding eastwards since the collapse of the USSR. Rather then draw up a new European security arrangement to include Russia and further demilitarise the continent, NATO expands to include former Soviet republics and Soviet satellites. Where Moscow was once thousands of km from NATO, it is now only hundreds.

US withdrawal from ABM Treaty without offering Russia legal guarantees it won't be used against them. It may be quite limited now, but a few decades from now it may have the capability to knock out Russian ballistic missiles so in effect giving the US a first strike capability against Russia without fear of retaliation.

Unilateral military campaigns by the West bypassing the UN and thus making countries that do not conform to US political and economic ideologies (i.e Russia) nervous.

Russian imperialism against Ukraine. Ukraine has suffered tremendously under Russian domination and it's no wonder the majority of the population want to look West and join NATO to protect themselves from the corrupt authoritarian Russian bear.

Putin is part of a long list of Russophile authoritarian leaders who have a nationalist and paranoid outlook on geopolitics and to combat perceived threats want to expand Russian influence especially if they see Russian national security under threat at some point in the future. They wish to recreate parts of the old Soviet Union under the Customs Union and CSTO banner and Ukraine is absolutely essential, it's practically Russia's under belly. Take that out and Russia would be extremely exposed to armoured formations making a quick dash for Moscow due to the flat Russian steppes. Western tanks dashed through the flat Iraqi desert. Now imagine how much easier that would be on grass (See Operation Barbarossa). The further NATO is away from it's borders, the safer the Russian elite feels so it will push outwards like it did under Imperial Tsarist Russia and like it did under the USSR banner. The West is trying to prevent Russia from dominating it's neighbours again and bring countries such as Ukraine under the EU style political and economic development (starting with a hefty dose of capitalist shock therapy- which in the end didn't work on Russia which is a more Eurasian country than a European one).



bigjon said:

I think he was to at least annex Crimea which honestly was a Russian Possession for a long time.


- A buffer state between a Western leaning Ukarine (geographically it would make sense to "annex" upto the river just East of Kiev). He would then grant this new Eastern Ukarine "independence" simply so that the EU and possibly Nato would never be on his doorstep. Why he actually care about Nato is beyond anyone as this is 2014, not 1984. The Cold War is over and no one cares about Russia as we all trade too much to fight.

- To redeem his dignity after the mess that was Sochi. He want's to act tough after looking like a real dipshit.



Badassbab said:

Russian imperialism against Ukraine. Ukraine has suffered tremendously under Russian domination and it's no wonder the majority of the population want to look West and join NATO to protect themselves from the corrupt authoritarian Russian bear.

Like what exactly?



mai said:

Badassbab said:

Russian imperialism against Ukraine. Ukraine has suffered tremendously under Russian domination and it's no wonder the majority of the population want to look West and join NATO to protect themselves from the corrupt authoritarian Russian bear.

Like what exactly?


Russia came to Ukraine as imperialists eager to absorb her into the Russian empire first under the Tsars and then under the Bolshevik USSR. Russian was the lanuguage of the better off and culturally advantaged and Ukrainian was seen as a peasant language. Under Russian led Bolshevism Ukraine went through a terrible famine that killed millions of Soviets including over a million Ukrainians and then under Stalinism many millions more died as a result of the Holodomor.  Russian imperialism (Tsarist/Bolshevik) led to the deaths of millions of Ukranians.



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Badassbab said:
mai said:

Badassbab said:

Russian imperialism against Ukraine. Ukraine has suffered tremendously under Russian domination and it's no wonder the majority of the population want to look West and join NATO to protect themselves from the corrupt authoritarian Russian bear.

Like what exactly?


1) Russia came to Ukraine as imperialists eager to absorb her into the Russian empire first under the Tsars and then under the Bolshevik USSR. Russian was the lanuguage of the better off and culturally advantaged and Ukrainian was seen as a peasant language. 2) Under Russian led Bolshevism Ukraine went through a terrible famine that killed millions of Soviets including over a million Ukrainians and then under Stalinism many millions more died as a result of the Holodomor.  Russian imperialism (Tsarist/Bolshevik) led to the deaths of millions of Ukranians.

1) What modern Ukrainians have to do with the territories Russsian Empire acquired thorugh that time? Pretty much nothing, no?
2) What bolsheviks have to do with the famine or so called Holodomor? Should Irish people have grudge against the British because of the Great Famine too? or Indians because of famine of 1943 in Bengal? (though all of them did have it, bad examples). As for the millions. What time perioid you are actualy referring to? How many millions?



So Ukraine finally decided to grow a pair and try to retake some areas?



mai said:
Badassbab said:
mai said:

Badassbab said:

Russian imperialism against Ukraine. Ukraine has suffered tremendously under Russian domination and it's no wonder the majority of the population want to look West and join NATO to protect themselves from the corrupt authoritarian Russian bear.

Like what exactly?


1) Russia came to Ukraine as imperialists eager to absorb her into the Russian empire first under the Tsars and then under the Bolshevik USSR. Russian was the lanuguage of the better off and culturally advantaged and Ukrainian was seen as a peasant language. 2) Under Russian led Bolshevism Ukraine went through a terrible famine that killed millions of Soviets including over a million Ukrainians and then under Stalinism many millions more died as a result of the Holodomor.  Russian imperialism (Tsarist/Bolshevik) led to the deaths of millions of Ukranians.

1) What modern Ukrainians have to do with the territories Russsian Empire acquired thorugh that time? Pretty much nothing, no?
2) What bolsheviks have to do with the famine or so called Holodomor? Should Irish people have grudge against the British because of the Great Famine too? or Indians because of famine of 1943 in Bengal? (though all of them did have it, bad examples). As for the millions. What time perioid you are actualy referring to? How many millions?

1. My point is Russia to this very day is treating Ukraine not like a sovereign nation but a country that it needs to keep under it's control and influence.

2. Under the leadership of Lenin, there was the Russian famine of 1921 that killed millions of Soviet citizens including over a million Ukranians. Granted there were a combination of factors that led to this namely the turmoil after the Great War which Russia lost. So you had a revolution, civil war, class confilct, ethnic divisions etc. Parts of Ukraine was forcibly incorporated into the Russian dominated USSR against the wishes of the Ukranians and the famine happened after this event. Holdomor was a Stalin instigated famine. Millions of Ukrainians died. This was a terrible crime against the Ukrainian people.

3. Britain is not treating Eire or India like colonies that it needs to control and keep under it's sphere of influence for national security reasons....unlike what Russia is doing to Ukraine in the year 2014. Both Eire and India are sovereign independant nations and Britain treats them as such. Both countries are free to trade with who they want and decide how best to deal with national security issues without inteference from Britain. 



Badassbab said:

1. My point is Russia to this very day is treating Ukraine not like a sovereign nation but a country that it needs to keep under it's control and influence.

And it's a nation? Let alone sovereign? Since when? Actually the last one is not a rhetorical question.

2. a) Under the leadership of Lenin, there was the Russian famine of 1921 that killed millions of Soviet citizens including over a million Ukranians. Granted there were a combination of factors that led to this namely the turmoil after the Great War which Russia lost. So you had a revolution, civil war, class confilct, ethnic divisions etc. Parts of Ukraine was forcibly incorporated into the Russian dominated USSR against the wishes of the Ukranians and the famine happened after this event. b) Holdomor was a Stalin instigated famine. Millions of Ukrainians died. This was a terrible crime against the Ukrainian people.

a) Please explain what kind of logic leads from natural disaster to, I quote, "Ukraine has suffered tremendously under Russian domination". And idioitc one?

b) Proofes of that, please.

3. Britain is not treating Eire or India like colonies that it needs to control and keep under it's sphere of influence for national security reasons....unlike what Russia is doing to Ukraine in the year 2014. Both Eire and India are sovereign independant nations and Britain treats them as such. Both countries are free to trade with who they want and decide how best to deal with national security issues without inteference from Britain. 

That's because Britain is no more, but that's another story, let's leave that for another time.





mai said:
Badassbab said:

1. My point is Russia to this very day is treating Ukraine not like a sovereign nation but a country that it needs to keep under it's control and influence.

And it's a nation? Let alone sovereign? Since when? Actually the last one is not a rhetorical question.

2. a) Under the leadership of Lenin, there was the Russian famine of 1921 that killed millions of Soviet citizens including over a million Ukranians. Granted there were a combination of factors that led to this namely the turmoil after the Great War which Russia lost. So you had a revolution, civil war, class confilct, ethnic divisions etc. Parts of Ukraine was forcibly incorporated into the Russian dominated USSR against the wishes of the Ukranians and the famine happened after this event. b) Holdomor was a Stalin instigated famine. Millions of Ukrainians died. This was a terrible crime against the Ukrainian people.

a) Please explain what kind of logic leads from natural disaster to, I quote, "Ukraine has suffered tremendously under Russian domination". And idioitc one?

b) Proofes of that, please.

3. Britain is not treating Eire or India like colonies that it needs to control and keep under it's sphere of influence for national security reasons....unlike what Russia is doing to Ukraine in the year 2014. Both Eire and India are sovereign independant nations and Britain treats them as such. Both countries are free to trade with who they want and decide how best to deal with national security issues without inteference from Britain. 

That's because Britain is no more, but that's another story, let's leave that for another time.



Yes Ukraine is an independant country but unfortunately just like in the past it's in a tug of geopolitcal war and naturally being the big bully next door neighbour Russia undemines its right to self determination the most.

a)  There was nothing natural about this. Ukraine paid a very heavy price for what should have been a Russian problem because of the Bolsheviks taking their grain away with little to no compensation.

b) The mass murdering racist tyrant Joseph Stalin played a prominent role in the Holodomor genocide and there is scholory debate over whether this was instigated by Stalinists or a bad harvest. My personal view based on what I've read is it's a genocide and Stalin and his allies were responsible for what could have been entirely avoidable. Google is your friend and one can make up their own mind. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Holodomor#Deliberately_engineered_or_Continuation_of_civil_war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JAiUcqy3lM&t=14 <<<< Genocide in Ukraine

P.S Britain still exists. There are over 60 million of us.