By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - After seeing Bayonetta 2 and 'X' in action today...

 

The PS4's power seems...

Better, but not THAT much better anymore... 241 15.42%
 
Are you crazy?! The PS4 is GOD! 349 22.33%
 
The Wii U is clearly unde... 741 47.41%
 
The PS4 is selling better... 36 2.30%
 
I think I'll be buying a... 191 12.22%
 
Total:1,558
fatslob-:O on 23 February 2014
curl-6 said:

No, it isn't. If they all came out at the same time maybe, but devs have had almost a decade of  experience with PS3/360 and have tailored their engines so intimately to these systems that development for them is now incredibly easy.

The Wii U, on the other hand, has only been out a year. Nintendo's poor documentation and devkits are legendary, and devs couldn't be bothered overhauling their tried and true PS3/360 engines to accomodate Wii U. As a result, getting the most out of Wii U is quite a bit more challenging than getting the most out of the already maxed out PS3/360.

Yes, it is. Time means nothing in terms of difficulty. A programmer is not supposed to be some code monkey to one language but they are meant to be adaptable to other concepts in coding theory over time. Programming on 1990 graphics hardware is absolutely NOTHING like programming on 2010 graphics hardware. 

Nintendo is known for poor documentation of hardware but since it's only the GPU that has significantly changed AMD has the documents for the Evergreen ISA. So what about the tried and true PS360 engines not accomadating the WII U ? Those engines likely didn't accomodate the new hd twins either and they already outperforming their last gen systems automatically. Getting most out of the WII U ain't exactly hard either since it's easier to program than either of those last generation hd twins but then again they have an awful CPU holding them back so who am I to say ? 



Around the Network
starworld on 23 February 2014
curl-6 said:
starworld said:

sorry a console with double the ram and a Newer more powerful gpu is harder to program for, that doesn't make any sense, it doesn't matter if they have a decade of experiance, they had less then 512 mb of ram to work, vs wiiu having 1 gb, not to mention a year later and ports are still inferior, developers have made it clear that PS4 is much easier to develope for then 360/ps3.

LMAO. Take a look back at launch PS3/360 games, then 2013 games, and tell me with a straight face that a decade of experience doesn't matter.

Wii U ports are still inferior cos they are still lazy rushjobs where PS3/360 assets are copy+pasted and the bare minimum of optimization is done. There has not been a single game built from the ground up for Wii U to push its hardware yet, therefore we have not seen its real capacity.

you don't seem to understand what i'm saying, it doesn't matter if they have a decade of experiance if they getting better hardware, it should be easier to develope for on wiiu, more ram and better gpu should make it easier to run 360/ps3 games. lets say for instants a game with ps3 quality graphics was being made which do you think would be easier to develope for ps3 or ps4 hardware?



curl-6 on 23 February 2014
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

No, it isn't. If they all came out at the same time maybe, but devs have had almost a decade of  experience with PS3/360 and have tailored their engines so intimately to these systems that development for them is now incredibly easy.

The Wii U, on the other hand, has only been out a year. Nintendo's poor documentation and devkits are legendary, and devs couldn't be bothered overhauling their tried and true PS3/360 engines to accomodate Wii U. As a result, getting the most out of Wii U is quite a bit more challenging than getting the most out of the already maxed out PS3/360.

Yes, it is. Time means nothing in terms of difficulty. A programmer is not supposed to be some code monkey to one language but they are meant to be adaptable to other concepts in coding theory over time. Programming on 1990 graphics hardware is absolutely NOTHING like programming on 2010 graphics hardware. 

Nintendo is known for poor documentation of hardware but since it's only the GPU that has significantly changed AMD has the documents for the Evergreen ISA. So what about the tried and true PS360 engines not accomadating the WII U ? Those engines likely didn't accomodate the new hd twins either and they already outperforming their last gen systems automatically. Getting most out of the WII U ain't exactly hard either since it's easier to program than either of those last generation hd twins but then again they have an awful CPU holding them back so who am I to say ? 

Nonsense, again, look at PS3/360's graphical improvement over time. Development gets easier with familiarity and improved tools, so long as there is coninued investment.

Wii U is architecturally different from PS3/360; code built for the latter is not well suited to the former, much like 360 code was not a good fit for PS3 early in the 7th gen.

And PS3/360 have lots of things holding them back; older GPUs, small RAM, inadequate eDRAM on 360, split memory on PS3. But as long as Wii U games are merely ported cheaply from these systems, Wii U will inherit the consequences of PS3/360's weaknesses through shared assets.



curl-6 on 23 February 2014
starworld said:
curl-6 said:
starworld said:

sorry a console with double the ram and a Newer more powerful gpu is harder to program for, that doesn't make any sense, it doesn't matter if they have a decade of experiance, they had less then 512 mb of ram to work, vs wiiu having 1 gb, not to mention a year later and ports are still inferior, developers have made it clear that PS4 is much easier to develope for then 360/ps3.

LMAO. Take a look back at launch PS3/360 games, then 2013 games, and tell me with a straight face that a decade of experience doesn't matter.

Wii U ports are still inferior cos they are still lazy rushjobs where PS3/360 assets are copy+pasted and the bare minimum of optimization is done. There has not been a single game built from the ground up for Wii U to push its hardware yet, therefore we have not seen its real capacity.

you don't seem to understand what i'm saying, it doesn't matter if they have a decade of experiance if they getting better hardware, it should be easier to develope for on wiiu, more ram and better gpu should make it easier to run 360/ps3 games. lets say for instants a game with ps3 quality graphics was being made which do you think would be easier to develope for ps3 or ps4 hardware?

More RAM and a better GPU do make Wii U games run better, if the dev actually bothers to use these features; see Need for Speed Most Wanted and Trine 2.



starworld on 23 February 2014
curl-6 said:
starworld said:
curl-6 said:
starworld said:

sorry a console with double the ram and a Newer more powerful gpu is harder to program for, that doesn't make any sense, it doesn't matter if they have a decade of experiance, they had less then 512 mb of ram to work, vs wiiu having 1 gb, not to mention a year later and ports are still inferior, developers have made it clear that PS4 is much easier to develope for then 360/ps3.

LMAO. Take a look back at launch PS3/360 games, then 2013 games, and tell me with a straight face that a decade of experience doesn't matter.

Wii U ports are still inferior cos they are still lazy rushjobs where PS3/360 assets are copy+pasted and the bare minimum of optimization is done. There has not been a single game built from the ground up for Wii U to push its hardware yet, therefore we have not seen its real capacity.

you don't seem to understand what i'm saying, it doesn't matter if they have a decade of experiance if they getting better hardware, it should be easier to develope for on wiiu, more ram and better gpu should make it easier to run 360/ps3 games. lets say for instants a game with ps3 quality graphics was being made which do you think would be easier to develope for ps3 or ps4 hardware?

More RAM and a better GPU do make Wii U games run better, if the dev actually bothers to use these features; see Need for Speed Most Wanted and Trine 2.


which was my main point. wiiu should be easier to develope for in theory, the more advantages the hardware has the easier it is for developers to make 360/ps3 quality graphics, now if they wanna blow away last gen then you really have to get to know the hardware.



Around the Network
Faust on 23 February 2014

i think most people ignore the fact that both, X and bayonetta are not that amazing (visually speaking), all that mumbling about specs is pointless if we can tell with our naked eyes.

Btw what a bs poll seriously DX



ZyroXZ2 on 23 February 2014
fatslob-:O said:
ZyroXZ2 said:

Nobody's cherrypicking anything or ignoring anything.  Lame comments about how Sony could have said 15 or 20 are obviously not worth debating, since they COULD have also said 5, which is definitely in line with the numbers.  I clearly linked all the things you needed to see that the PS4 isn't 10 times as powerful as the PS3.  With Sony's track record of their overstatement of power, I have no reason to toss out the numbers that state otherwise, AND believe their PR statements.

I will always get accused of being a Nintendo fanboy by the simple action of defending them, that's not surprising in the least.  People who can see through me a little better can tell the difference.  I'm clearly defending Nintendo because of the unfair amount of negative press and "hardcore gamer" smack talk the Wii U unjustly receives, mostly using the PS4's "power" as some sort of reference or standard.  These same individuals are the people buying into the marketing of the PS4, and just gobble up anything Sony says about their system.  Both the negativity towards the Wii U and the overhyped PS4 information need to stop.

If my show was a PS4 show, I would have most likely written my blog article to Sony fanboys about why they need to stop exaggerating the power the PS4 has.  It's the most powerful of the three consoles, but it's not going to magically alter graphics to anyone with an unbiased eye.

You're clearly more vested in the PS4, despite everything you say.  And though you take my information as an attack in the PS4, it's more of a "debunking" than anything else.  I have very real expectations of all systems, that's why you don't see me praising any of them.  And no, it's not because I'm a PC gamer, but admittedly, PC gaming does open ones eyes about "graphics".  Assuming, of course, a high-end or enthusiast rig is being used.

Now I know why JoeTheBro was dissappointed ...

How do you know what's inline with the numbers when your seriously conspiring against Sony's statements ? You don't have anything claiming that the PS4 ISN'T 10x more powerful than the PS3. BTW that was NVIDIA's claim that the RSX had 2 Tflops NOT Sony. (AKA the guys that made your GTX 670's ...)  http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_21111.html Blame Nvidia's PR not Sony's!

Maybe if you had taken off the goggles and put some thinking caps on you might actually have an idea of what's going on. How is the negative press unfair when nintendo themselves puts out a system with an abysmal image ? Maybe those "hardcore gamers" aren't getting screwed in the back by Sony because they have modest PR compared to last time. The overhyping of the PS4 may need to tone down but the negativity towards the WII U is absolutely deserved.

Such as shame that you would resort to fighting in the console wars and I had better respect for neutral PC gamers but what you suggested just shows that your trapped in the console wars. How don't you have unbiased eye when you only just realized that pikmin 3 had edges galore when I pointed it out ? You don't seem to appreciate those "fine details" compared to other PC gamers like Pemalite and myself. 

Wow, getting defensive here are we ? That's because you clearly ARE attacking the PS4 and you haven't debunked anything. You don't have ANY real expectations of the systems because your uneducated about hardware in general. Even if you used your a "PC gamer" card it still doesn't mean that your analysis will be relevant considering that some PC gamers like Pemalite will know more than others. 

And that's where you're wrong.  The Wii U does NOT come close to deserving all of its negativity, that's just a bandwagon.

So, we're back to Pikmin 3 when I was clearly talking about SM3DW, which, as I stated, has barely any polygon edges (the Savannah is almost the only level with clear corners).  But on Pikmin 3, who said I JUST noticed them?  In fact, I was one of the guys complaining about the ground textures in Pikmin 3 in particular.

Ya know, one of my friends warned me, he said "you'd better be careful with your mission, Sony fanboys go on the offensive far worse than Nintendo fanboys overly praise Nintendo and its games".  He was right, lol... If you say anything OTHER than praise for the PS4, the Sony fanboys go on the attack and start trying to discredit you immediately.

Soooo, BACK on topic, since defending myself personally does nothing but stir up more attacks, I'll go back to the systems.  There's MORE saying the PS4 is NOT 10 times as powerful as the PS3 than there is confirming it.  This is why I don't buy it one bit just because Sony said so.

So let's play...  Let's suppose NVIDIA is at fault for the wrong numbers.  The PS3's GPU is heavily assisted by the CPU (it really is quite a unique setup), so let's remove that assistance.  Let's also take some low numbers for the PS3.  Let's say the CPU provides 100 GFLOPS instead, and the GPU is providing 200 GFLOPS (these are pretty low numbers, which works in favor of painting the PS4 as more powerful): that's a 300 GFLOP system.  300 x 10 is a 3 TFLOP system.  The PS4 is a 2 TFLOP system.  There is no TEN TIMES THE POWER ANY WAY YOU SPIN THIS!  Go ahead, call me all the names you want, take the high road, act like I'm a fanboy, ANYTHING you want.  I just went with some SERIOUSLY low numbers on the PS3, and 10 times those numbers are STILL far beyond the PS4.  The ENTIRE PS3 system needs to be under 200 GFLOPS to have an argument here.

So instead of attacking me and claiming I have goggles on, why don't you take yours off and try to find a way to show me that the PS4 IS ten times as powerful than the PS3 other than just "stated" by Sony?

Edit: Bah, typos



Check out my entertainment gaming channel!
^^/
curl-6 on 23 February 2014
starworld said:

which was my main point. wiiu should be easier to develope for in theory, the more advantages the hardware has the easier it is for developers to make 360/ps3 quality graphics, now if they wanna blow away last gen then you really have to get to know the hardware.

Now that I would agree with. What I meant was, it would be harder to push Wii U to its limit than PS3/360, as the latter two already have all the tools and infrastructure in place to reach their maximum.



fatslob-:O on 23 February 2014
curl-6 said:

Nonsense, again, look at PS3/360's graphical improvement over time. Development gets easier with familiarity and improved tools, so long as there is coninued investment.

Wii U is architecturally different from PS3/360; code built for the latter is not well suited to the former, much like 360 code was not a good fit for PS3 early in the 7th gen.

And PS3/360 have lots of things holding them back; older GPUs, small RAM, inadequate eDRAM on 360, split memory on PS3. But as long as Wii U games are merely ported cheaply from these systems, Wii U will inherit the consequences of PS3/360's weaknesses through shared assets.

 Time =/= Difficulty

Development on the WII U is easy enough as it is seeing as how there's nothing left to uncover for the WII U. It's been using that same old ass CPU architecture ever since the gamecube and it's GPU is some VLIW5 GPU from AMD which is well over 4 years old already in terms of design. The tools that the developers used for the WII and PC will apply largely to the WII U so they probably don't have much development left with the tools. 

Your example is mostly irrelevant due to the fact that their are already existing tools and codes for the WII U. 

You pretty much just destroyed your entire premise right there ... The fact that you just showed these older systems have severe bottlenecks just goes to show how much easier it should be to develop for the WII U. Cheap ports mean nothing in terms of how difficult it is to develop for a platorm. 



curl-6 on 23 February 2014
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

Nonsense, again, look at PS3/360's graphical improvement over time. Development gets easier with familiarity and improved tools, so long as there is coninued investment.

Wii U is architecturally different from PS3/360; code built for the latter is not well suited to the former, much like 360 code was not a good fit for PS3 early in the 7th gen.

And PS3/360 have lots of things holding them back; older GPUs, small RAM, inadequate eDRAM on 360, split memory on PS3. But as long as Wii U games are merely ported cheaply from these systems, Wii U will inherit the consequences of PS3/360's weaknesses through shared assets.

 Time =/= Difficulty

Development on the WII U is easy enough as it is seeing as how there's nothing left to uncover for the WII U. It's been using that same old ass CPU architecture ever since the gamecube and it's GPU is some VLIW5 GPU from AMD which is well over 4 years old already in terms of design. The tools that the developers used for the WII and PC will apply largely to the WII U so they probably don't have much development left with the tools. 

Your example is mostly irrelevant due to the fact that their are already existing tools and codes for the WII U. 

You pretty much just destroyed your entire premise right there ... The fact that you just showed these older systems have severe bottlenecks just goes to show how much easier it should be to develop for the WII U. Cheap ports mean nothing in terms of how difficult it is to develop for a platorm. 

The Wii U GPU is quite unlike the PS3 and 360's, which are the basis of the engines used in Wii U multiplatform games. Round peg, square hole.

And PS3/360's bottlenecks are not difficult anymore because game engines have long since been designed to cope with them and maximise the hardware's strengths. There's been no such effort to tailor to Wii U though, so it gets engines that neither compensate for its weaknesses nor maximise its strengths; in other words, engines that do not utilise its full capabilties.