Mate I've provided examples of your contradictions in the posts if you ignore them then that's your choice I won't bother repeating myself on them, I'm not looking into the cat suit too much because I've actually played the game I'm speaking from experience, the cat power up opens up new paths in the levels that can either lead to secrets or alternative routes which 3DW's levels appear to be aiming to have numerous of through out the playthrough. This is more practical in design then many of the previous power ups and if you think 3DW is like SM64 then I'm sorry you've proven my earlier point about you making judgments on a game and that comment alone has me questioning if you've played either game to compare them as followers of 3D Mario can tell you off the bat the approaches in both game differ significantly.

The argument against Lost Levels is one of the weakest I've read in a long while, many games like SMRPG and Earthbound were never released in Europe does this mean these games don't count? No fact is Lost Levels is known to be the actual sequel to SMB and was released on the same console, under your logic FFVI is still FFIII because of the market politics back then.

Yes you are employing vagues arguments, you're simply saying this game doesn't count based on your opinion with out giving no detail what so ever, my point about the SNES is one you've failed to challenge even though you disagree so far all you've done is dismiss games with no real backing other then an opinion on experience. SWS mechanics are nothing like OOT, TPs, WWs or a mix of them, the gameplay is more puzzle and tactical based then the action focused approach of other Zelda games most actions have a certain way of being performed, SWS also employs a struture approach that focuses on events in the gameworld driving story instead of dungeons you find yourself dealing with set pieces in most cases rather then navigating dungeons to fight bosses, the game has at best vague similarities to its predecessors.

Your argument against Smash can again be applied to all fighting games, Brawl lacks several mechanics that were key in Melee as a follower of the fighting game community I can tell you this has a huge effect on how the game plays, match ups work and so on. If the games weren't that different Project M wouldn't even exist, Project M alone goes against your whole stance.

I notice the differences in games I play simply because I don't just coast through them, many people play Smash, Street Fighter and so on but have no clue on the full mechanics range in the game and that is what I feel is the flaw in your stance as you've admitted you don't research on games but even then some of your comparisons and arguments like WW and SWS are down right questionable especially trying to pass of the latter as traditional when it's one of the more untraditional games out there. Someone could easily go through a game like DMC3 just shooting and doing basic moves igonring all other mechanics that however doesn't mean the is no depth if the person tries to argue so and that is the flaw I'm seeing in your stance.

I agree with you about Miyamoto, he should still have a role in the development of Mario & Zelda games, just not final sale on everything.

Also if you include the Wii ___ titles, then yes Nintendo did make a lot of new IP's this gen. I just don't see them quite as games, not like Mario Kart of DKC. Plus stuff like Wii Party replaces Mario Party, and Wii Fit isn't the first of its kind. Wii Sports though, I can't not give that game credit, it make the Wii.....well sell as well as it did.

As for your disagree point.....it actually sounds like you agree, in bold is essentially my point, the only difference is I also think Wii lacked some gib name games. However you did point out Wii Sports/Wii Fit, which are big game names, and new experiences. I omitted them because of the shift in target audience, I feel Nintendo is less for the core now then it has ever been, but....you're still right about Wii Sports/Fit.

I think you I are in agreement, with the only disagreement being on when Nintendo published the most IP's. I still think it was during the SNES/N64 era, but you think otherwise. I'll agree to disagree, or at least agree that the new stuff Nintendo makes has been shifted away from the core gamers, and onto the casual ones.

No you have not shown me any contradictions. You've overemphasised my point about the Bee suit being stupid in Galaxy, the last new Mario game experience, and then told me that I have contradictions over and over.

If you don't think SM3DW is like SM64, then I feel you're a bit blind. The art design and gameplay look very similar, and some of the level designs look similar too. Take Block Fort and compare it to anything in SM3DW.

Lost Levels is the unreleased official SMB2. Outside of Japan, it's not the marketed SMB2, thus your arguement is invalid. Thus no other 2 Mario games released on one console have ever been more similar then Galaxy 1 & 2. Under my logic FFIII is FFVI because it was later re-released as FFVI on PS1 and GBA where SMB Lost Levels has always been SMB: Lost Levels, and never replaced or omitted SMB2.

If you read what I typed, I never omitted a game without reason, I only omitted games not developed by Nintendo. My arguement is about games developed by Nintendo, so why are you listing projects by other studios? When I compare modern games to SNES games, did I once list Earthbound or Super Mario RPG? No.

As for the whole Zelda thing, you do realize that puzzles have been a central focus on all 3D Zelda's? Skyward Sword is no more or less focused on it, and actually I would argue it's more action oriented then prior Zelda, which is the exact opposite of what you feel. The difference between SS and other Zelda's is cosmetic primarily, and that's it.

As for your last paragraph, you're putting way to much merit on small changes. If you eat an Orange from Africa or Florida, is it still not an Orange? I'm saying that Orange is still an Orange even if the African Orange is yellow and tastes different. It's still no Grapefruit or Apple. So in regards to gaming, yes there are differences between stuff like Brawl and Melee, but only the hardcore fan groups give a hoot. Most people look at them and see the same style game with different levels and characters. Heck the fact that Brawl is best played with a Gamecube controller alone merit that the gameplay is basically the same.

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Anyway, believe what you want, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I just wish Nintendo made more drastic changes to their games. I wish SM3DW created another character as awesome as Yoshi, and based the game around that, but I don't think that will ever happen again. I wish Nintendo made a game centered on WaLuigi, but they won't. I wish more of Nintendo's IP's took risks like with Starfox Adventures, Luigi's Mansion, Super Mario Kart, Paper Mario, etc, etc, but they won't.

That's my arguement, and that's why I feel Nintendo has lost a lot of creativity.

You're the one who keeps harping on about the bee suit even now I don't even need to address this point because I never even elevated the bee suit and instead highlighted other aspects of Galaxy you just seem hung on the bee suit for some reason. I also have to face/palm at the blind comment because it is a key example of what I've been pointing out in your whole stance, you've taken some vague similarities and based your stance on it, no need to even repeat myself same with the contradictions.

Your argument is the are no two similar Mario games were ever released on the same console right, Lost Levels whether SMB2 or not is a follow up to SMB and was released on the same console, no argument can deny this no matter how badly you want it to you were flat out wrong. Your stance with omitted games is inconsistent because you're listing games by HAL laboratories, Rare and so on who are second party and so on yet collaborations like PG don't count.

Your Zelda views tell me you don't venture into the series at all and like Mario have formed a view on vague information, SWS is not more action focused then previous games it's more tactical and puzzle like in almost all of the actions from combat to doing simple actions like opening the bosses chambers through the mechanics while in previous games puzzles were much more lighter and traditional from finding a hidden key to activating a switch, the most action focused Zelda game is TP.

Your analogy is flawed to the context of your stance and I'll give you one that describes things perfectly, if I eat and orange yes it's an orange but if go to another country and eat a fruit that looks like an orange but tastes different chances are it's not an orange and could be another citrus fruit. Vague similarities don't mean something is the same, if someone buys every Street Fighter game and neglects to use any of the special moves and mechanics and opts to only use normal moves each then it's down to them the same applies to you with Smash, the majority of fighting games are best played with an arcade stick does that mean they're all the same? No it's just a preferred button layout that one conclusion alon on the controller is mind boggling I'm sorry.

You're the one who keeps bringing up the bee suit and Galaxy in general. I've only really talked about the cat suit, since it's the only new enchancement is see in SM3DW.

Look, just because you disagree with me, doesn't mean my points are vague. How much clearer can I say this, when talking about the lack of creativity with 1st party games developed by Nintendo, I won't count 3rd party games published by Nintendo. This is as clear as I can make it because I never insulted 3rd party games published by Nintendo.

Lost Levels was not released outside of Japan, so no matter how badly you argue this you're wrong. If you lived in Japan and grew up on the Famicom instead of the NES, I'd take your arguement, but 99% of people here grew up on the NES, not the Famicom, which never saw Lost Levels release, and therefore.....no two other Mario games released on the same platform have been as similar.. Galaxy 1 & 2 are the most similar Mario games released on the same console (I would even argue in the Mario Universe outside the Copy and Paste NSMB titles).

As for insoncistancies, Rare was owned by Nintendo in the 90's, so all their games were first Party. HAL isn't Nintendo, but Smash Bros was created by Satoru Iwata, who is the current president of Nintendo. It's his franchise, HAL and Nintendo just split rights for it, but it's his game. So no inconsistancies my friend................ Platinum Games doesn't evenly exclusively develop for Nintendo, Bayonetta 2 is a sequel to a PS3/360 game for goodness sake.

As for your last point about Fruit and Fighters, you agree that the vast Majority of people won't be able to tell the difference between similar Street Fighter or Similar Smash Bros games right? If you eat and orange from two different countries and it tastes similar, you won't argue that one isn't an orange now would you? Kinda supporting me here.

Fighting games with a stick, they appear the same on the surface, but between games the difference can be as big as Oranges to Grapefruits. Brawl and Melee are still oranges, Street Fighters are still grapefruit.

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P.S. I own every Zelda, so it kinda shows you how much peoples opinions can differ. Like I said, with the fruits, you're far too technical. I'm arguing Apples and Oranges, and you're arguing Tangerines and.....other small oranges.

Yes, we do agree.  The part you're calling my "disagree point" in bold is actually my agree part - the disagree part was above.  And I don't necessarily disagree that SNES was a prime time for new IP's - moreso than today - I was just saying that Wii was also a prime time for new IP's.  They were bold new experiences.  Even as a core gamer I was blown away by Wii Sports when I first played it.  It sold me on Wii instantly after I skipped GameCube.  The mix of that new experience with classic Nintendo games was unmatched.  DS also offered totally new experiences such as Brain Training and other titles, as well as a return to 2D Mario after a decade or more - stuff that was all new or away for so long it was fresh.

Wii U really needs that.  Nintendo has done a great job in the past of coming up with something that shakes up the industry, and the new home system really needs at least one major new IP that is totally fresh in concept and execution.  SM3DW looks outstanding to me, a brilliant execution of classic Mario mixed with modern 3D visuals.  It will sell, and probably sell quite a few Wii's.  But if Nintendo wants to be the market leader this gen they need to mix that classic awesomeness with something that contrasts it and is all-new.  Sequels to the Wii-games aren't it, and neither was NintendoLand.

The bee suit is your own little issue I highlighted designed in levels and all and your only response was comparing it and metal Mario like it's some focal point in a game, again you brought up Galaxy yourself. I have to face/palm your attempts to dodge Lost Levels as no matter how badly you want it to not exist it proves your whole point wrong no two ways about it, the game was later released in the All Stars pack on the SNES so it was released in the west, you've been caught out here just accept it.

Vague arguments are the ones you're employing, arguments such as having similar art style and characters and using it to say they're the same are vague, it'll be like someone saying Mike Tyson and Mohammed Ali are both black and boxers so they're the same, that's how a lot of what you're trying to push is coming across it's not a case of disagreeing with it but describing the type of view being put forth.

Nintendo owned 49% of Rare while the Stampers owned 51% between them but maintained partnership with Nintendo, Rare was second party hence why Nintendo sold their shares when MS bought the Stamper's shares of the studio because the latter could override the former, this isn't like Retro who are fully owned by Nintendo. Hal Laboratories highlights in consistencies because you use them yet W101 a Nintendo IP created back in the 90s by Nintendo doesn't count under your notion because PG developed it, Smash Bros wasn't created by Iwata it was created by Masahiro Sakurai, an IP is just that a franchise belonging to the said company.

The analogy challenges your stance as on the surface a citrus fruit will vaguely resemble other citrus fruits but it's not the same yet under the way you're putting your views forward you'd be saying they're all oranges regardless as you're only looking on the surface and nothing more, Melee and Third Strike play significantly different to their successors from mechanics down to how you handle match up as strategies and approaches like zoning for example are affected by the changes.

Well then, I think I can agree with you here, there isn'y really anything on the WiiU that emphasizes the WiiU's capabilities like previous consoles. Wii had Wii Sports, Gamecube had gorgeous games like F-Zero GX and Smash Bros, N64 had massive 3D games like Mario & Zelda, and SNES just had so much awesome.

WiiU does in deed need something like this, NintendoLand isn't enough. 3DW does look good, I really like how all WiiU games run in native 1080p, it really makes them pop on screen. It's just 3DW doesn't look as awesome as Galaxy, SM64, or SMW at their respective time of launch, and I don't think it will sell as well, or push as many consoles.

I still feel Nintendo is running out of creativity. Take a look at their 2D Mario games, I mean NSMB2 is largely focused on collecting coins, and none of the power ups look cool at all. I honestly feel that Nintendo is using that series as a cash grab, and I don't like how Nintendo relies on Mario, Zelda, and Donkey Kong so much now. I mean during the SNES era, Kirby and Starfox sold respectively too, and they were new IP's, but how much did Pikmin 3? XenoBlade was cut short by Nintendo, and it's kinda sad because they really need the sales of new IP's like this to further evolve the company.

Again, you're bringing up the bee suit. I only mentioned it to show the lack of creativity in Mario games, suits in general have gone downhil from the days of the invisible cap, flying cap, metal mario, fireball mario, racoon mario (which somehow worked), Yoshi (not a suit, but a damn awesome addition) etc, etc.

So for being Vague, I could say the same about you. You've mentioned that level design has drastically improved in Mario games, but never given a specific reference. I've played SM3DW a bit in the store, and It feels a lot like SM3D Land. In both of these games, the level design is no more complex then SM64, actually I would even argue that SM64 & SM64 DS had more extravagent level designs, more platforms to hop. I mean look at these images, and ignoring hardware limitations, how can you tell me the games improved?

Actually.....I want to argue that there is poorer game design in 3D Worlds, everything is being dumbed down. SM64 and Galaxy had an overworld, and you had to figure out how to get all the Stars in the game. SM3D Worlds is just level after level, a lot of which are linear, which feels like the game got dumbed down... Still going to be a great game, but you honestly can't say that Nintendo is doing something new here.

There is no such thing as Second Party, it was a term created by Nintendo to explain their relationship with GameFreak (which they don't even own). Nintendo did own 49% of Rare, which isn't above 50%, but it's enough for Nintendo to have a huge say in what Rare makes, and I say it's enough to call Rare 1st party in the 90's.

Wonderful 101 was not an IP created in the 90's, what are you talking about? It's a new IP by Platinum Games. You're pulling straws, there are no inconsistancies with my point. I didn't include 3rd party games published by Nintendo on the SNES like SMRPG (which single handedly is better then anything the WiiU has), and I didn't count 3rd party games published by Nintendo on the Wii or WiiU like that vs. Capcom game, W101, or some of the other games you mentioned. Simple, I'm talking about stull like Super Mario Kart.

With the Fruits, if it looks & tastes like an orange, it's an orange. Doesn't matter if its a bit sour like an African Orange, or super large like a Florida Orange. Super Mario 3D Worlds is still an Orange, not a Grapfruit, or an Apple.

Melee plays differently from Brawl, yes I agree, but not so differently that I wouldn't consider it a Smash Bros game. If I gave both games to people who have never played them before, they will think they are pretty much the same games. However if I gave two people Super Mario World 1 & 2, people will immediatly see the difference in gameplay, I mean you don't even play as Mario in SMW2. This is why Nintendo was more creative in the past, the differences between games were enough to create entire new franchises. This is how the Yoshi series came out, I don't exactly see the Cat Suit making a Mario Cat spinoff....lolo Bee and Cat Suit.

This is becoming comical on the bee suit front it's like you suffer from memory loss as it's all over your posts then in your next post you'll start off "you keep bringing it up". Yes level design has improve drastically I'll  give you examples from recent videos and personal play, in one level you're on a moving train trying to navigate your way to the front while a parallel train bombards you with bullet bills and bombs, levels designed to allow a top down shooter experience as well as a racing style level which pays hommage to Mario Kart, a circus style stage where you use the acts to navigate through and from the demo I played it highlights the vision behind the cat power up as it grants access to parts of the level and routes you can't normally get to also highlight the multiple paths in levels it can also act as a difficulty regulating factor allowing players to bypass harder sections of a level this is far more practical then any of the power ups in SM64 which saw very minimal use, show me in SM64 where the was a top down shooter level. As for levels looking similar.

Again stop this vague stance, I can even highlight Galaxy's levels if you like such as spherical under water boss battle, the level where you have to navigate a course while balancing on a ball, the level where you have to guide Mario in a bubble past hazards, the spider like boss where you sling shot Mario to defeat him, the giant mechanical SOTC like boss who you navigate its body like an assualt course to get to its core etc... No 3DW does have an overworld it has a world map and ironic you've contradicted a much earlier post of yours by realizing 3DW is not like SM64.

Yes the is such a thing as second party it's a developer who is exclusively contracted for a certain duration on a platform but is not an actual subsidery of the company they develop for, Bungie were second party to Microsoft, Insomniac were second party to Sony, Silicon Knights were second party to Nintendo etc... when the contract ends the developer is free to either renew it or go their own way.

Another citrus fruit like a tangerine looks like a different sized orange yet it's not that's the who point your stance would declare it an orange because you choose to only look at the surface, if I gave someone Galaxy and 3DL they'd notice the differences quickly as well.