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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Do you think Nintendo should drop their whole Seniority system?

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Should Miyamoto Retire and let someone else lead?

NO! Are you Crazy? 62 38.51%
 
Maybe he could co-develop more projects 22 13.66%
 
Maybe he could lead less projects 9 5.59%
 
Yes, but he should still do Mario & Zelda 7 4.35%
 
Yes, but he should still have some input 20 12.42%
 
Yes, but he should still ... 15 9.32%
 
Yes, he should retire, or... 11 6.83%
 
See the Pik Vote 15 9.32%
 
Total:161
Michael-5 said:
Dr.EisDrachenJaeger said:
Ha no. Sequels dont factor into their plans.These guys want to own the market. I dunno what Iwata did to them, but they're insane. They got something in their eyes, I dunno man.

People will get tired of the same games over an over, Nintendo can't rely on Mario forever, just like Bungie can't rely on Halo, Rockstar can't rely on GTA (but I see this sticking for a while), and Activision can't rely on COD forever.

Dr.EisDrachenJaeger said:
Madworld Sold better than Anarchy Reigns did XD

Mad World is a better game.

orniletter said:

So this is one of those threads ?

 

Yeah, the Wonderful 101 didn´t flop to apocalyptic proportions Kinda Did.

and the 3DS didn´t see Kid Icarus: Uprising. Not a new IP

I hate this type of thread because:

-the thread creator ignores the many new IPs Nintendo made (W101, Elite Beat Agents, Jam with the Band, the Wii stuff,Pandora´s Tower, The Last story, touch generation games  etc.) Will comment on this below

-ignores the sequels to series that didn´t have a new entry in close to a decade (Pikmin, Luigi´s Mansion, Kid Icarus) If you read my OP, I did give Nintendo credit for waiting a while on some IP's, but it's still the same games over and over

-acts like new IPs are  better on principle than games with known characters, even if the new IP´s gameplay is  standard fare for the genre

-put´s the blame on Miyamoto when Miyamote just won´t shut up about retiring and wanting to move to new/smaller games. Didn't know this, YAY

 

Look at the PS4/XBone´s launch line up. Ryse appears to be a shallow 0815 hack´n slash game. Knack looks like straight out of the PS2/GameCube generation (in a bad way, from the gameplay perspective). Not a comparision, don't care

And the SNES stuff will never happen again, games need 60+   staff members nowadys. You could make a SNES game with far less.


So you mentioned that Nintendo did make some new IP's, but you made a list of games published by Nintendo and developed by someone else the only Nintendo developed new IP you mentioned was Jam With the Band.

Now hear me out, I'm not ranting out just new IP's, but new Ideas in games. Donkey Kong Country was a Donkey Kong game, the mascot existed already. Yoshi's Island, well that's a spinoff from a newly introduced Nintendo character. Plus Mario Part, Kart, Paper, etc, are still Mario games, just a different genre.

Where is the imagination nowadays? Is the best Nintendo can come up with is a Cat Suit for 3D Worlds? or a Bee suit for Galaxy? They will probably be awesome games, but they just aren't as epic as "Metal Mario", Yoshi, Wario, etc....

That's my critisism. The only new Mario franchise of recent years is Soccer, and that's not enough.

You complain about imagination then used Galaxy as your example? Galaxy had a concept that opened up level design for platforming games beyond what we had seen before if you think the was no imagination there then I question what exactly you're expecting. New IPs are just that, it doesn't matter who develops them it's the content owner (in this case Nintendo) who has commisioned the idea and given it the green light, getting an outside studio to develop them is nothing new for any platform holder.

Your logic is not very clear here, Donkey Kong Country was not like other platformers let alone the previous games regardless if the character was already, Mario Kart created a sub genre of racing games and Paper Mario is a unique RPG like no other. It seems like you're trying to dismiss all creative aspects just because they have a familar character, that's not how determining new aspects works and a flawed approach.



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Miyamoto definitely needs to go. The general manager of EAD needs to be someone with vision and enthusiasm for creating games, not someone who goes on record saying he's "too tired" to make new games.

This is the highest paid member of EAD who is preventing younger and more able people from leading Nintendo in a successful direction. EAD's output is definitely in a serious decline both in quantity and quality and Miyamoto must take full blame for that.



Miyamoto already said that is going to produce small projects, he is not going to supervise another Mario or Zelda game, also what happened with F-Zero and Star Fox, it just those games didn´t sell enough, and most of the games made by a third party like Fzero (Sega) or Star Fox (Namco) didn´t sold enough to keep producing games of those franchise for the Wii, or the 3DS in the case of Star Fox. Also here are more people producing game on Nintendo, its just Miyamoto is the one who is know by most people, while Xenoblade was supervised by Monolith, Metroid Prime was supervised by Miyamoto and Tanabe wich is working with Nintendo since Doki Doki Panic (SMB 2) so saying that MP was made with out Nintendo Seniority System would be wrong.



leedlelee said:
Suke said:

 

Let's not forget Pushmo/Pullblox...

There was a good amount of time where Pushmo was the highest reviewed game on the 3DS...

My gripe with Nintendo right now isn't that they rely on the same IP's; it's that they don't give due credit to their smaller and more niche ones...

I'm actually really looking forward to Pushmo/Crushmo (What's Pullbox?) I'm getting a 3DS next time it's on sale, was $20 off a little while back, but the black 3DS XL was sold out Either way, worst case I pick up a 3DS on Black Friday or Boxing Day (Dec 26th sales in Canada are bigger then Black Friday).

I love Intelligent Systems, I'm so glad Nintendo finally started localizing more of their games in 2001 with Fire Emblem and Advance Wars.



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Soundwave said:
Miyamoto is still the head of EAD as a software division and I get the feeling he still has a very large say in the design of hardware and company philosophy.

If Miyamoto doesn't like something or there's an idea that doesn't mesh with Miyamoto's philosophy, I get the sense that it's pretty much shot down at Nintendo.

That's, in essence, my complaint. He's 60ish, he doesn't know what youth want anymore.

Wyrdness said:
Michael-5 said:
So you mentioned that Nintendo did make some new IP's, but you made a list of games published by Nintendo and developed by someone else the only Nintendo developed new IP you mentioned was Jam With the Band.

Now hear me out, I'm not ranting out just new IP's, but new Ideas in games. Donkey Kong Country was a Donkey Kong game, the mascot existed already. Yoshi's Island, well that's a spinoff from a newly introduced Nintendo character. Plus Mario Part, Kart, Paper, etc, are still Mario games, just a different genre.

Where is the imagination nowadays? Is the best Nintendo can come up with is a Cat Suit for 3D Worlds? or a Bee suit for Galaxy? They will probably be awesome games, but they just aren't as epic as "Metal Mario", Yoshi, Wario, etc....

That's my critisism. The only new Mario franchise of recent years is Soccer, and that's not enough.

You complain about imagination then used Galaxy as your example? Galaxy had a concept that opened up level design for platforming games beyond what we had seen before if you think the was no imagination there then I question what exactly you're expecting. New IPs are just that, it doesn't matter who develops them it's the content owner (in this case Nintendo) who has commisioned the idea and given it the green light, getting an outside studio to develop them is nothing new for any platform holder.

Your logic is not very clear here, Donkey Kong Country was not like other platformers let alone the previous games regardless if the character was already, Mario Kart created a sub genre of racing games and Paper Mario is a unique RPG like no other. It seems like you're trying to dismiss all creative aspects just because they have a familar character, that's not how determining new aspects works and a flawed approach.

Galaxy is pretty good, but the Bee suit was terrible. Galaxy isn't too bad of a rehash, but 3D Worlds is just a 3D Super Mario Bros with the most basic level design.

The Last Story and Pandora's Tower are good games, I'm actually playing Pandora's Tower now, but they aren't really Nintendo. I mean, by publishing these games, Nintendo gets exclusive rights, but my complaint isn't against these games, it's against the games Nintendo is developing themselves. Nintendo has always published great games, from Earthbound to Super Mario RPG to F-Zero GX (developed by Sega) to Last Story.

My complaint is against what Nintendo makes with their 1st party studios, XenoBlade was awesome, but what else have they given us lately that's been new and refreshing? Surely nowhere nearly as much stuff as the SNES. You clearly misread my comment when refering to DKC, Mario Kart, and Paper Mario because I'm using those as examples of great ideas, stuff that Nintendo only makes sequels for now. Prior to XenoBlade, the last big new Nintendo experience was Pikmin and Starfox Adventures and that debuted in 2001. A couple big new IP a decade, compared to like a dozen on SNES.....I blaime seniority, small studios like Retro Studios, and Platinum games have younger staff, and look how amazing their games are. Nintendo should let their younger devs take more control, or maybe buy out Platinum Games and let them fiddle with what they want. I would love a PD Starfox.



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Michael-5 said:
leedlelee said:

Let's not forget Pushmo/Pullblox...

There was a good amount of time where Pushmo was the highest reviewed game on the 3DS...

My gripe with Nintendo right now isn't that they rely on the same IP's; it's that they don't give due credit to their smaller and more niche ones...

I'm actually really looking forward to Pushmo/Crushmo (What's Pullbox?) I'm getting a 3DS next time it's on sale, was $20 off a little while back, but the black 3DS XL was sold out Either way, worst case I pick up a 3DS on Black Friday or Boxing Day (Dec 26th sales in Canada are bigger then Black Friday).

I love Intelligent Systems, I'm so glad Nintendo finally started localizing more of their games in 2001 with Fire Emblem and Advance Wars.

Pullblox is the name of Pushmo is Europe... :)

I wrote it to prevent confusion among our European friends...



Have a nice day...

I agree with you Mike. Nintendo needs spring cleaning of their execs. They're devs are on too tight of a leash.



Michael-5 said:

Galaxy is pretty good, but the Bee suit was terrible. Galaxy isn't too bad of a rehash, but 3D Worlds is just a 3D Super Mario Bros with the most basic level design.

The Last Story and Pandora's Tower are good games, I'm actually playing Pandora's Tower now, but they aren't really Nintendo. I mean, by publishing these games, Nintendo gets exclusive rights, but my complaint isn't against these games, it's against the games Nintendo is developing themselves. Nintendo has always published great games, from Earthbound to Super Mario RPG to F-Zero GX (developed by Sega) to Last Story.

My complaint is against what Nintendo makes with their 1st party studios, XenoBlade was awesome, but what else have they given us lately that's been new and refreshing? Surely nowhere nearly as much stuff as the SNES. You clearly misread my comment when refering to DKC, Mario Kart, and Paper Mario because I'm using those as examples of great ideas, stuff that Nintendo only makes sequels for now. Prior to XenoBlade, the last big new Nintendo experience was Pikmin and Starfox Adventures and that debuted in 2001. A couple big new IP a decade, compared to like a dozen on SNES.....I blaime seniority, small studios like Retro Studios, and Platinum games have younger staff, and look how amazing their games are. Nintendo should let their younger devs take more control, or maybe buy out Platinum Games and let them fiddle with what they want. I would love a PD Starfox.


I've played 3DW at London's Comic and Anime Con it's nowhere near what you describe it's level design is closer to the Galaxy games by far I can personally vouched for this. You keep bringing up the bee suit like it was the focal point of Galaxy when it was the design and concepts of each level and even then it's subjective whether metal Mario was even that good a power up at all as it found few uses considering how you're pegging it, creativity is not just down to a power up.

Pandora's Tower and Last Story are Nintendo, PG has shed light on how Nintendo oversees projects handled by third parties as versions of the game are sent to them periodically and Nintendo directs the studios with their feedback down to changes in the gameplay, in the case of Last Story Nintendo had some of their own team developing. If you truly believe Pikmin was the last big new experience you must be overlooking a number of games, the Galaxy games, the new Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, New Leaf, Skyward Sword and so on tell me the in house teams are perfectly fine.

The SNES was Nintendo's second console ofcourse it'll have more new IPs then their 5th console I don't quite get what point you're employing here, back then they were introducing you to their library and their bread and butter, they then built these franchises into what they are today. It's nothing to do with seniority as Miyamoto and Tezuka don't have as much hand in development of the games anymore, I think you have a misguided view here on how gaming libraries go cosidering how strong their mainline IPs are Nintendo last gen added 7 or so new IPs to it.



Wyrdness said:
Michael-5 said:

Galaxy is pretty good, but the Bee suit was terrible. Galaxy isn't too bad of a rehash, but 3D Worlds is just a 3D Super Mario Bros with the most basic level design.

The Last Story and Pandora's Tower are good games, I'm actually playing Pandora's Tower now, but they aren't really Nintendo. I mean, by publishing these games, Nintendo gets exclusive rights, but my complaint isn't against these games, it's against the games Nintendo is developing themselves. Nintendo has always published great games, from Earthbound to Super Mario RPG to F-Zero GX (developed by Sega) to Last Story.

My complaint is against what Nintendo makes with their 1st party studios, XenoBlade was awesome, but what else have they given us lately that's been new and refreshing? Surely nowhere nearly as much stuff as the SNES. You clearly misread my comment when refering to DKC, Mario Kart, and Paper Mario because I'm using those as examples of great ideas, stuff that Nintendo only makes sequels for now. Prior to XenoBlade, the last big new Nintendo experience was Pikmin and Starfox Adventures and that debuted in 2001. A couple big new IP a decade, compared to like a dozen on SNES.....I blaime seniority, small studios like Retro Studios, and Platinum games have younger staff, and look how amazing their games are. Nintendo should let their younger devs take more control, or maybe buy out Platinum Games and let them fiddle with what they want. I would love a PD Starfox.


I've played 3DW at London's Comic and Anime Con it's nowhere near what you describe it's level design is closer to the Galaxy games by far I can personally vouched for this. You keep bringing up the bee suit like it was the focal point of Galaxy when it was the design and concepts of each level and even then it's subjective whether metal Mario was even that good a power up at all as it found few uses considering how you're pegging it, creativity is not just down to a power up.

Pandora's Tower and Last Story are Nintendo, PG has shed light on how Nintendo oversees projects handled by third parties as versions of the game are sent to them periodically and Nintendo directs the studios with their feedback down to changes in the gameplay, in the case of Last Story Nintendo had some of their own team developing. If you truly believe Pikmin was the last big new experience you must be overlooking a number of games, the Galaxy games, the new Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, New Leaf, Skyward Sword and so on tell me the in house teams are perfectly fine.

The SNES was Nintendo's second console ofcourse it'll have more new IPs then their 5th console I don't quite get what point you're employing here, back then they were introducing you to their library and their bread and butter, they then built these franchises into what they are today. It's nothing to do with seniority as Miyamoto and Tezuka don't have as much hand in development of the games anymore, I think you have a misguided view here on how gaming libraries go cosidering how strong their mainline IPs are Nintendo last gen added 7 or so new IPs to it.

Again, I'm not saying 3DW will be a bad game, just more of the same. I know Mario isn't as recycled as COD, but I think it needs more diversity, more creativity and innovation, like the older games.

As for Pikmin being the last big new experience since XenoBlade, your response kinda validates that. Galaxy is Mario, and not new, same with Fire Emblem, Zelda, and Animal Crossing. You basically listed Pikmin and XenoBlade as the only big new Nintendo developed games from the last decade, which is what I said.

You're missing my point because you're spending more time defending Nintendo then reading what I have to say. Nintendo depends a lot more on their big franchises now then they used to. If you look at the best selling SNES games DKC and Mario Kart rank high, and they were completly new experiences. N64 had Smash Bros and Mario Party to push numbers, but GCN and Wii only had a few small volume new IP's. Nintendo's devs are out of idea's, that's why they are focusing more and more on sequels.

I mean SNES had 2 Mario platformers, both very different with one spawning the Yoshi series. N64 had 1 Mario platformer which was very different from before, Wii however had 3, only one of which (Galaxy 1) I would credit for being new and innovative, WiiU already has 2 Mario platformers, neither of which are new or different from previous games. Nintendo is loosing their creative touch.

Here's a perfect example, take New Super Mario Bros. U. What new environments/suits did it introduce? Underwater was already done, Racoon suit was also done, same with the Fire suit. So what did it bring other then the exact same game, but with different levels? Compare this to Yoshi's Island, and Super Mario World....Nintendo has lost their creative edge, and I blaime aging senior developers which get final say in everything.



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Michael-5 said:

Again, I'm not saying 3DW will be a bad game, just more of the same. I know Mario isn't as recycled as COD, but I think it needs more diversity, more creativity and innovation, like the older games.

As for Pikmin being the last big new experience since XenoBlade, your response kinda validates that. Galaxy is Mario, and not new, same with Fire Emblem, Zelda, and Animal Crossing. You basically listed Pikmin and XenoBlade as the only big new Nintendo developed games from the last decade, which is what I said.

You're missing my point because you're spending more time defending Nintendo then reading what I have to say. Nintendo depends a lot more on their big franchises now then they used to. If you look at the best selling SNES games DKC and Mario Kart rank high, and they were completly new experiences. N64 had Smash Bros and Mario Party to push numbers, but GCN and Wii only had a few small volume new IP's. Nintendo's devs are out of idea's, that's why they are focusing more and more on sequels.

I mean SNES had 2 Mario platformers, both very different with one spawning the Yoshi series. N64 had 1 Mario platformer which was very different from before, Wii however had 3, only one of which (Galaxy 1) I would credit for being new and innovative, WiiU already has 2 Mario platformers, neither of which are new or different from previous games. Nintendo is loosing their creative touch.

Here's a perfect example, take New Super Mario Bros. U. What new environments/suits did it introduce? Underwater was already done, Racoon suit was also done, same with the Fire suit. So what did it bring other then the exact same game, but with different levels? Compare this to Yoshi's Island, and Super Mario World....Nintendo has lost their creative edge, and I blaime aging senior developers which get final say in everything.


Mario has more diversity then most games this is apparent in Galaxy and 3DW seems to have much more then Galaxy I don't really get what you're looking for exactly that's the problem in your point it's very vague, Galaxy is the most creative and innovative of the Mario platformers even more then the older game and all this stems from it's design.

Your contradicting yourself all over here so how can anyone of us get your point, you're busy there saying it's Mario so it's not new then you turn around and say Galaxy is new and innovative which contradicts everything in your stance and proves my point the in house team are fine, it's not me defending Nintendo it's more your point is inconsistent and not clear and is coming across as trying to be selective and restrictive in making your stance gain ground but is instead contradicting it. You're not getting the point about new IPs a number of them are still made, W101 for example is one of the best action games I've played, but you're never going to get going to get as many new big IPs on a console that is released 20 years after the second console in a company's journey into gaming because the latter is when the company is still new the comparison is flawed in the context you're giving. It's like saying I had more food when I did my shopping a few days a go.

I think you should take a look back on your view as you seem to be misguided in what something new is and only looking on the surface of games, you know why Nintendo did away with all the power ups from previous games? It's because in the long run they're not practical and like Metal Mario many of them got few uses to the point they couldn't even be classed as a gimmick, the modern Mario games instead focus on level design as levels are what what drives the games and sticking only with a few practical power ups, Skyward Sword did this as well in dropping loads of items for a few practical ones. In NSMBU you can see the design and understand the concept behind each level whether it's swimming underwater avoiding a Sea Dragon's movements to get through or manipulating lift platforms to navigate a castle the idea and creativity behind each level is clear. Their games have as much new ideas as before it's just focused else where innovation and such aren't just power ups.

Seniority really has nothing to do here as Miyamoto and other older members haven't had a final say in development since the GC days that's now down to the appointed chief officers of each franchise in Aonuma, Koizumi, Konno and so on