Forums - General Discussion - Sexy and Sexism are not the same thing?

Does Sexy = Sexism

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As someone who believes both in equality and freedom I have been thinking on a growing trend where if something is made sexy it is then accused of being sexist?

I do not agree with this as sex is the one area where there is a genuine physical difference between both men and women and this would therefore lead to a difference in the effort to create sexual appeal for both men and women. 

Threrfore the games industry will often include highly sexualized women to appeal to men as it can often have an impact on the games popularity (How many people bought Dead or Alive Volleyball just for the gameplay?) but will make little to no effort to provide highly sexualized men to appeal to women as it will likely have no impact.

I will agree that having female characters that appeal to men and not women may put women off from playing the game. But this is simple appealing to one demographic as opposed to another which all games do in one form or another as you can't please everyone.

As was said by Herbert Bayard Swope "I can't give you a sure-fire formula for success, but I can give you a formula for failure: try to please everybody all the time."

What I view as the primary problem is that female characters are on average far less developed than male characters and their sexualized appearance is seen as the cause.

I would also like to point out that while I don't view games having sexy characters as inherantly sexist I do agree that it can sometimes be determental to the gaming experience. 

Thoughts?



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According to Feminists... Everything = Sexism against women

       

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Jizz_Beard_thePirate said:
According to Feminists... Everything = Sexism against women


While I would say not all of them, it seems that a growing number of feminist are moving away from genuine equality to getting rid of things they don't like.

As much as some women dislike it, they will never be able to eliminate sexuality in media.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

All things are relative and people often disagree on what is sexist and what is not. That's important to remember. There is no absolute, black-and-white line.

In terms of creative freedom, all things have a right to exist. DoA Volleyball is no worse than a typical romance novel. If you don't like either one, don't play/read it. It's a simple enough solution. There should be no mandate to censor a type of game out of existence.

Traditional gaming, like it or not, is still dominated by a male demographic. More females might be more interested in it than ever but that certainly doesn't mean everything has to change. Products aimed at guys are just fine. However, the problem for me comes in when games go outside of themselves to add fan-service for no real reason. Nudity in Saint's Row is expected but imagine if Elizabeth from BioShock Infinite looked like Jessica Rabbit. That would be unnecessary, in my opinion. Skimpy armor in Dragon's Crown is something I have zero problem with but it would be ridiculous in a realistic setting.

If females really are getting into gaming then the product will expand naturally. Supply conforms to demand.

I'm still not sure why video-games take so much heat, however, when there are many other forms of media where separate products exist for men and women with little fuss.



Is the design of kratos sexist?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a0/Kratos_God_of_War_III.jpg

He seems to have an ideal body and is certainly showing it off, but I'd say no.

 

Is the design of this girl from MGS5 sexist?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/e31acfe4eeea53172efb98db7ee4011f/tumblr_mtnfzjcCPI1qjdbjmo1_500.jpg

She seems to have an ideal body and is certainly showing it off, and I'd still say no.

 

Saying their designs are sexist is similar to saying attractive real world people are inherently sexist. That's just silly. However, don't confuse this as me saying sexism isn't in video games. It's all about what the characters do though, not what they look like.



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Sex sells, simple as that.



JoeTheBro said:

Is the design of kratos sexist?

He seems to have an ideal body and is certainly showing it off, but I'd say no.

 

Is the design of this girl from MGS5 sexist?

She seems to have an ideal body and is certainly showing it off, and I'd still say no.

I don't know about the characters, but YOU are sexist. Apparently Kratos has an "ideal body" because he's strong and muscular (which makes sense - he's the god of war), while the girl's body is "ideal" because? Overly thin, big breasts? What is that ideal for? Sex?

Anyway, you claim that the two characters are equally designed. They're not. Kratos is muscular for a reason, and his outfit is designed to de-emphasise any possible sexual element. Furthermore, his outfit is perfectly suited to what he's going to do, when any extraneous clothing could get in the way or give foes something to grab. The girl's body shape is thin with big boobs... why? Which wouldn't be a big deal, if not for the fact that her outfit is clearly designed to emphasise it, with the bikini underwear, skintight leggings, etc. And why is she dressed like this, exactly? Sexism is definitely informing the design.

Let me put it another way - you could easily see a martial artist dressed in the way Kratos is dressed. Would you ever see a military woman running around in the clothes that the girl's wearing? And would that bra really afford her the kind of support she'd need given the kind of action she'd be expecting to see?

Sexism isn't about the design, it's about the reason for it. Zero Suit Samus's design isn't sexist because her clothes are designed for minimal separation between body and suit, and simultaneously maintains the kind of natural modesty that you'd expect from a confident and independent woman. On the other hand, if Zelda were outfitted in the same way, that would be sexist, because a princess who depends on magical ability when she does fight wouldn't be wearing such clothing.



Aielyn said:
JoeTheBro said:

Is the design of kratos sexist?

He seems to have an ideal body and is certainly showing it off, but I'd say no.

 

Is the design of this girl from MGS5 sexist?

She seems to have an ideal body and is certainly showing it off, and I'd still say no.

I don't know about the characters, but YOU are sexist. Apparently Kratos has an "ideal body" because he's strong and muscular (which makes sense - he's the god of war), while the girl's body is "ideal" because? Overly thin, big breasts? What is that ideal for? Sex?

Anyway, you claim that the two characters are equally designed. They're not. Kratos is muscular for a reason, and his outfit is designed to de-emphasise any possible sexual element. Furthermore, his outfit is perfectly suited to what he's going to do, when any extraneous clothing could get in the way or give foes something to grab. The girl's body shape is thin with big boobs... why? Which wouldn't be a big deal, if not for the fact that her outfit is clearly designed to emphasise it, with the bikini underwear, skintight leggings, etc. And why is she dressed like this, exactly? Sexism is definitely informing the design.

Let me put it another way - you could easily see a martial artist dressed in the way Kratos is dressed. Would you ever see a military woman running around in the clothes that the girl's wearing? And would that bra really afford her the kind of support she'd need given the kind of action she'd be expecting to see?

Sexism isn't about the design, it's about the reason for it. Zero Suit Samus's design isn't sexist because her clothes are designed for minimal separation between body and suit, and simultaneously maintains the kind of natural modesty that you'd expect from a confident and independent woman. On the other hand, if Zelda were outfitted in the same way, that would be sexist, because a princess who depends on magical ability when she does fight wouldn't be wearing such clothing.

Are you calling me sexist for saying she seems to have an ideal body, or are you calling me sexist for saying the female's design isn't sexist? Both?



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Aielyn said:
JoeTheBro said:

Is the design of kratos sexist?

He seems to have an ideal body and is certainly showing it off, but I'd say no.

 

Is the design of this girl from MGS5 sexist?

She seems to have an ideal body and is certainly showing it off, and I'd still say no.

I don't know about the characters, but YOU are sexist. Apparently Kratos has an "ideal body" because he's strong and muscular (which makes sense - he's the god of war), while the girl's body is "ideal" because? Overly thin, big breasts? What is that ideal for? Sex?

Anyway, you claim that the two characters are equally designed. They're not. Kratos is muscular for a reason, and his outfit is designed to de-emphasise any possible sexual element. Furthermore, his outfit is perfectly suited to what he's going to do, when any extraneous clothing could get in the way or give foes something to grab. The girl's body shape is thin with big boobs... why? Which wouldn't be a big deal, if not for the fact that her outfit is clearly designed to emphasise it, with the bikini underwear, skintight leggings, etc. And why is she dressed like this, exactly? Sexism is definitely informing the design.

Let me put it another way - you could easily see a martial artist dressed in the way Kratos is dressed. Would you ever see a military woman running around in the clothes that the girl's wearing? And would that bra really afford her the kind of support she'd need given the kind of action she'd be expecting to see?

Sexism isn't about the design, it's about the reason for it. Zero Suit Samus's design isn't sexist because her clothes are designed for minimal separation between body and suit, and simultaneously maintains the kind of natural modesty that you'd expect from a confident and independent woman. On the other hand, if Zelda were outfitted in the same way, that would be sexist, because a princess who depends on magical ability when she does fight wouldn't be wearing such clothing.

Zero Suit is not modest because it's so tight that it looks like another layer of skin. It's an efficient suit for its purpose perhaps, but not modest.

Anyways, you made good points and I agree.

I myself wonder why female characters that bear more than average significance in a game often are model as the stereotypical "babes". Ideal hip-waist ratios, well-endowed chest with great shape, pretty face, delicate features etc.

Why couldn't Elizabeth from BioShock Infinite have some extra tire?



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Aielyn said:

(...) Furthermore, his outfit is perfectly suited to what he's going to do, when any extraneous clothing could get in the way or give foes something to grab. (...)

Dafuq did you just say? LOL

"We don't need armor covering our whole body, it would only get in the way!"

EDIT: Oh damn, I never actually noticed Kratos has a huge ass scar on his stomach. Yeah, he definitely couldn't use armor there.