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Forums - General Discussion - Evidence for the existence of God

Andir on 11 February 2008
godf said:
Acumen seems to have changed what he means by God proving 'beyond your ability to deny' that he exists.

At first, he indicated that this simply meant to fulfil Andir's requat for a personal audience. Which would not place any limit on Andir's free will.

He later seems to change his meaning, so that, by definition, it serves to over-ride free will. As if God intentionally overides Andir's free will, forcing him to believe, as a way of proving his existence.

That was clearly not what Andir was originally talking about.



The problem with having an all knowing, all powerful creator; and then believing that he can condemn his creation, is more interesting anyway.

When God started the big bang and sent matter spiraling through the universe, he knew it would lead to every sin you are going to commit. When he reaches down to create you soul at the point of conception, he knows whether he's creating somone he will later damn or bless.

Seems a little unfair, eh?

 That goes along with my idea that an all knowing being, be it omnipotent or ominpresent, would be able to tell what each of these atomic subparticles spewn from the "big bang" (or creation) would eventually do, and thus already knows what is going to happen.  This negates the idea that you can live your life in any certain manner and change the course of existance against the will of God.



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tk1989 on 11 February 2008

haha, i love this thread... honestly, the only time that anyone can "prove" that god is real is if God decided to come down to earth and prove himself.. There has never been and there isnt any proof of God.

I personally find it hilarious that aethiests need to prove that god isnt real, as he is about as real as the fairies at the bottom of my garden.

This thread has been made on total assumptions, as are all god arguments.



godf on 11 February 2008

Indeed. Although I've always found defining precisely what 'free will' is difficult, so find tying the question to the justice of judgement more useful.



Andir on 11 February 2008

To me, they'd be one in the same. To know the outcome of one's life, you'd also know the outcome of their decision in what you assume is free will. Any all knowing being that created something that he doesn't know the outcome of, isn't very all knowing or all seeing.



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CrashMan on 11 February 2008

Yeah, I always found the argument that "Yes he knows what you are going to chose, but you still have to chose, and thats free will" is total BS.

If I make a program that adds 1 + 1 and I know every time that it will come out as 2, doesn't mean that there is an option of what 1 + 1 is and it still needs to be added by the program.



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Andir on 11 February 2008
tk1989 said:
haha, i love this thread... honestly, the only time that anyone can "prove" that god is real is if God decided to come down to earth and prove himself.. There has never been and there isnt any proof of God.

I personally find it hilarious that aethiests need to prove that god isnt real, as he is about as real as the fairies at the bottom of my garden.

This thread has been made on total assumptions, as are all god arguments.

Seeking knowledge.  That's the reason.  Religion teaches people to stop thinking and learning and just place your trust in God.  If all scientists and people all over the world just put up a barrier to what they want to discover, we will never learn what makes the world work, where we came from, and why we are here.

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godf on 11 February 2008

"To me, they'd be one in the same. "

 

But you could be all knowing, without being all powerful. Does that undermine free will too?

What about a non-material entity that was not all knowing, but able to travel through time. It would be able to observe you operating your 'free will', then travel back in time, and know precisely what you were going to do. Do you still have free will?

What if this entity was able to interfere with your life? Prodding circumstance, then travelling through time to check that circumstances led you to decide what it wanted you to decide. Do you still have free will?

A line would have to be drawn somwhere. I just don't know where, and I think there are a lot of instances that would be very close to that line. I'm not entirely sure what most people refer to when they talk about 'free will', so it's a concept I'd try to only use loosely in conversation.

But this is all OT.



Grey Acumen on 11 February 2008
godf said:
Acumen seems to have changed what he means by God proving 'beyond your ability to deny' that he exists.

At first, he indicated that this simply meant to fulfil Andir's requat for a personal audience. Which would not place any limit on Andir's free will.

He later seems to change his meaning, so that, by definition, it serves to over-ride free will. As if God intentionally overides Andir's free will, forcing him to believe, as a way of proving his existence.

That was clearly not what Andir was originally talking about.



The problem with having an all knowing, all powerful creator; and then believing that he can condemn his creation, is more interesting anyway.

When God started the big bang and sent matter spiraling through the universe, he knew it would lead to every sin you are going to commit. When he reaches down to create you soul at the point of conception, he knows whether he's creating somone he will later damn or bless.

Seems a little unfair, eh?

I never changed what I said, I simply didn't allow anyone else to change what I said.

What I was pointing out was that no matter what evidence is given, you can always deny what reality is, and come up with some other excuse for the circumstances. In order for God to prove his existence undeniably, he would have to do so in a manner that superceded the ability to deny, at which point free will is lost.

I'm seriously getting tired of people telling me that I'm saying something that I'm not.

 

Also, teh idea of knowing everything negating free will is also erronious. The only issue is if you think that one has to know only ONE single possible outcome. On the theory that every choice made creates an alternate path that the universe takes on the timeline, then every possible result of every possible choice could be tracked and followed.

"IF you take this action, then this will happen. IF you take this other action, something else will happen. Etc" There are an infinite number of possible choices to be made, but God is infinite and thus would be able to catalogue every result of every choice, and likely have a good feel for which choices are likely to be made as well. The choice itself is still up to thos emaking that choice though.

 



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godf on 11 February 2008

If you didn't change what you meant, your original reply to Andir was utterly irrelevent and misleading.

Andir did not insist on "God to prove his existence undeniably", that was you. And you then went on to criticise that notion.

You claimed "your scenario has two possibile outcomes", seemingly concluding it would be impossible for acumen to have a chat with God and decide he was real, without surrendering his free will.

How could you possibly justify that conclusion?



Andir on 11 February 2008
Grey Acumen said:
godf said:
Acumen seems to have changed what he means by God proving 'beyond your ability to deny' that he exists.

At first, he indicated that this simply meant to fulfil Andir's requat for a personal audience. Which would not place any limit on Andir's free will.

He later seems to change his meaning, so that, by definition, it serves to over-ride free will. As if God intentionally overides Andir's free will, forcing him to believe, as a way of proving his existence.

That was clearly not what Andir was originally talking about.



The problem with having an all knowing, all powerful creator; and then believing that he can condemn his creation, is more interesting anyway.

When God started the big bang and sent matter spiraling through the universe, he knew it would lead to every sin you are going to commit. When he reaches down to create you soul at the point of conception, he knows whether he's creating somone he will later damn or bless.

Seems a little unfair, eh?

I never changed what I said, I simply didn't allow anyone else to change what I said.

What I was pointing out was that no matter what evidence is given, you can always deny what reality is, and come up with some other excuse for the circumstances. In order for God to prove his existenc eundeniably, he would have to do so in a manner that superceded the ability to deny, at which point free will is lost.

I'm seriously getting tired of people telling me that I'm saying something that I'm not.

 

Also, teh idea of knowing everything negating free will is also erronious. The only issue is if you think that one has to know only ONE single possible outcome. On the theory that every choice made creates an alternate path that the universe takes on the timeline, then every possible result of every possible choice could be tracked and followed.

"IF you take this action, then this will happen. IF you take this other action, something else will happen. Etc" There are an infinite number of possible choices to be made, but God is infinite and thus would be able to catalogue every result of every choice, and likely have a good feel for which choices are likely to be made as well. The choice itself is still up to thos emaking that choice though.

 

I order to prove without a doubt, all he would have had to do was do what I asked in that post.  Those were not very complicated instructions.  The timing was available, the opportunity was available.  Nothing happened at all.  That quelled my curiosity.  If something had happened at the time I wrote that, I'd start having serious doubts about my viewpoint of reality.

 



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