Final-Fan said: Poeta said: Everytime I post on a religion topic. I usually post it because people have curious questions about religion. And I post since it could help thier faith. I'm usually not the kind of person whos gonna tell you "YOUR GONNA GO TO HELL!!!" just a person who wants to help. But I realize a lot of people here don't want to know anything. Just feel like arguing. For reals Imma stop posting here after this "believe that that guy was ever a evolutionist lecturer" well he is "ALL of the examples of 'creatures that defy evolution' can be easily explained by evolution" Thats wierd... Didn't he say he made question to the evolutionist and the evolutionist did not have an answer to him. Like the woodpeckers tounge? "I am certainly not a biologist. I have no knowledge of biology above GCSE level, but even I could explain how some of those creatures evolved." Hey thats not a bad idea. Maybe you should make your own documentary or get people to sponsor your video "I that defy creatures that defy evolution". You would put an end to this lying progapanda, to this creationist!!! Since offcourse you got the answers to them." "I suggest you read a couple of books by Richard Dawkins, or just any book on evolution to get a better understanding of evolution." Ok I'll do that, but next time give one in general, and what parts of the book that helped you understand evolution "Then make up your mind on whether God designed us or if we evolved." Eh once I read it. I'll let you know "Notice that the vast majority of Human eyes are not perfect. This suggests to me that an omnipotent God has not designed them because they are not perfect. The imperfections in the eye are to be expected if the eye has been evolving over thousands of years, thus backing up and providing even more evidence for evolution. " This is confusing. Just because the guy said our eyes are perfect (In a sence of how its form)(And compared probably to most animals, like our brain) it proves evolution because most people have poorsight, which you believe has been evolving over the years. (despite all the things today that cause people to wear glasses) . Now if someone is born blind, blindsighted or has any other kind of eye dieasses they disaprove God? If i poke my eye out i disaprove God? If I die, and my eyes turn to dust I'm dissaproving God? Are our eyes supposed to live forever? Should we be having all kinds of dieasses on our body but not our eyes? So yea.. if people where really interested in God (note not religion) they woun't be posting on furroms. Instead of posting, they would be researching on thier own. But I guess no one is interested. You say "Well he IS". This may be a slip of the tongue (metaphorically) because he is presently (apparently) and ANTI-evolutionist speaker. If you meant to say "well he WAS" then you ought to have provided a source. An anecdote of "well I asked this guy to explain it and he couldn't" means nothing. Assuming the "guy" in question was even trained at all instead of some poor sap on the street who like most people accepts evolution (sorry not watching the whole video just to find out) -- even in that case there's no reason to expect EVERYone with any scientific training pertaining to evolution to be able to explain how a particular trait of a particular type of creature came to evolve. Not every scientist on the planet can be an expert on woodpeckers. The important thing is whether someone who IS knowledgeable on the (alleged) evolution of woodpeckers can aswer that question, which they certainly can and have done, including specifically in response to this challenge. Many people have done debunkings of this sort already. Maybe not on this particular speaker (although I wouldn't be surprised) but certainly on his arguments. I was expecting you to come back with something like "well God chose not to give us perfect bodies because we're imperfect" because although I would question why God gave some of us defective parts it makes a lot more sense than "BUT IF I POKE MY EYE OUT GOD STILL EXISTS". Also I believe that you are incorrect about our eyes being the best; birds of prey (falcons etc.) have ridiculously good eyesight. And then there's the insanely good vision of mantis shrimp.

I did say "And compared probably to most animals" but yea your right.

The_vagabond7 said: The natural world disproves the existence of any loving god. If god is all loving all wise and all powerful, why is the natural world the way it is? You can blame man's problems on man, fine, but if God was involved in creating the earth, he would have to be one sick twisted fuck to create a world of never ending fear, pain, death, decay, where for any single creature to live tens if not hundreds have to die. Think about that, in order for one thing to live, it has to take the life of something else. In order for it to continue to live, it must continue to kill. Not just kill, maim, murder, rip the throat out of young innocent weak creatures that die choking on their own blood in agony, wishing some one anyone would save it. If god is loving, powerful and wise he could've created a natural world where every living thing lives in harmony and feeds on sunshine and rainbows. But instead, every living thing lives in fear and pain, trying to survive just one more day at any cost, even if it means feeding off of it's own children. If god created that and said "it is good", he doesn't deserve worship. He deserves to be shot. If there is any god, it has nothing to do with us, and doesn't resemble any human image of him. Honestly when it comes down to it, weak atheism, or agnosticism seem like the only logical choices. Believing in any man made god is ridiculous for any number of reasons, but when it comes down to it you have to make an illogical assumption one way or another. There are only two primary configurations for anything. Existence or non-existence. If something exists or existed, it's because there was a cause. If something doesn't exist and never existed it's because of a distinct lack of cause. So the question is, why does a highly ordered universe exist? One of two completely illogical reasons. Either there have always been universes forever and ever without cause, and we live in one that happens to have a set of physical principles that makes life possible. OR illogical option "B" some ambiguous higher intelligence that exists without cause created a highly ordered universe for no discernible or comprehendable reason. Either way, the Yahweh, JHVH, LORD, ect ect doesn't exist. And if he did, we should all be absolutely terrified that such a sick twisted creature is in control of the earth, and is deciding our fate. However, I would never try to convince any one that this is true. Richard Dawkins and his ilk writing books like "God the failed hypothesis" and "The God Delusion" are trying to do something terrible and impossible. People believe in god, not because it is something logical that can be argued away, but because it embodies hope. We are animals that have grown to realize we are going to die, and despite all the beauty of life, we have to let go of it. And there will be pain along with the beauty, lots of it. And we need help with that to. To hope is human, and God for so many people just represents hope. What will Richard Dawkins and others arguing against god replace this hope with? Biology? Physics? Economics? Is that enough for people to put faith and hope in? I don't think so. Religion may get in the way of progress, and be used as a tool to create soldiers, but on an individual basis man has yet to come up with a viable alternative. Man isn't ready to get rid of god yet, and I wouldn't ask any individual to do so. Even if I think it's a ridiculous and horrifying idea.

 I can simpathize with your feelings. 

Here's a Prophecy regarding what the earth will be like under gods kingdom in the future. A situation that is widely reffered to as Paradise. 

Isaiah 11:6 "6 And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea" 

I think the very god you are thrashing, Yahweh or Jehovah, obviously feels the same way as you do, and promises that under his kingdom things will be different.

 

appolose said: Andir said: If it isn't an ultimatum, what is it?  You either are, or you aren't.  That's pretty binary.  If you aren't, you shall be denied something. Saying that he is all powerful isn't an answer to the question.  What does his power have to do with humans telling each other he is all powerful?  And why does he need humans to do this?  Why gloat about all this power he has?  To what end?  To give or deny you love?  How is that not an ultimatum? It's quite literally Him saying "You can either chose to come to me, or, should you dislike me, should you not love me, I will leave you alone"  And that alone-ness (Yes, hell) is what we have asked for.  Its what we wanted.  I'm not saying that, in theology, some people like existing in torment forever, I'm saying that would rather that than God.  Bear in mind, I'm saying this is Christian theology, I'm not saying whether or not its true.  According to it, we get what we want.

But I'm not getting what I want.  I want proof, material and visible (with my own two eyes) proof that he exists before I will go out and believe such a tall tale.  If God truly did want us to choose, why doesn't he give us the evidence we need to make such a decision?  Why should I have to live a life of servitude to a set of rules made up by someone that will not show his face?  How is that fair to us?  If he did create us for the purpose of proving our "love" to him, to what end?  Why would something create a species, require them to follow a set pattern of rules, require them to accept his existance, and not give those questioning the existance the solid (no questions asked) proof that they need?  What's the point besides to play with us in twisted means?

senseinobaka said: appolose said: senseinobaka: "Both groups enjoy the ransom sacrafice and are made clean from adamic sin when they die." No, they don't. In Revelations, and many other places, it specifically says that there will be a judgement, and that some will go to heaven, and others to the lake of fire. If they were indeed cleansed of their sins, then they would not be condemned, contrary to that which does happen. And as for the context of the Corinthian verse, all throughout the chapter it refers to the body as a tent in which we live. "2)You claim that humans are some kind of soul/spirit hybrid. Genesis does not say that. They are just a soul" Again, in Genesis, it says that man was created in his image, and that man had the breath of life, distinguishing us from animal life, and forcing us to accept some other property than just the phyical, as God does not have a physical image in which we could be created. OK, now you are refering to Rev 20:13-15. First off, you are confirming exactly what I am saying. I'll run a comparison between what you are saying and what the bible is saying. 1)Rev 20:13 says that the sea, death, and hades gave up those who are dead. You are saying that only those who are faithful or saved are released from death. Where you went wrong. You ignored the many times the bible says the resurrection will be of both righteous and unrighteous AND you are putting words in the bible's mouth. Rev 20:13 puts no limit on who is being resurrected, you are. 2)Next Rev 20:13 says that those resurrected will be resurrected and judged according to there deeds. You say that they will be judged according to the deed commited in their sinful life. Where you went wrong. You again ignored scripture. This time romans that says that sins are forgiven upon death. Resurrected individuals will be resurrected to an Earth ruled by God's Kingdom and these individuals will no longer be shackled by sin. So for the first time they will have the ability to chose their lifestyle as free moral agents free from adamic sin. They will be judged according to there deeds when they are on this fair playing ground. Those who chose to rebel against God will be thrown into the lake of fire and experience second death, the one they will never be resurrected from.(Rev 20:14) [as a side note, I cant imagine someone that dumb, but the bible fortells MANY being that dumb]   As for your claim on creation. You focus on "breath of life" as being something only man has received. This is incorrect according to the bible. The word for "breath of life" is neshama. Neshama is used again in Genesis at Gen 7:22-23. This is during the flood, and it states "Everything in which the breath of the force of life[NESHEMA] was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died. Thus he wiped out every existing thing that was on the surface of the ground, from man to beast, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, and they were wiped off the earth; and only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving" So clearly animals also received the breath of life. Furthermore, being made in gods image doesnt mean we are spirit creatures. We can't even see spirit creatures. It refers to the major difference between animal and man. Like God, we have free will, and are wise, thinkers, and follow morals. We have the same emotions and qualities that god has, such as love.

No, I'm not saying they won't be resurected (given a new body), I'm saying they won't all be going to heaven. I postulate there is a differnece. Also, you seem to mention that Christ's death enabled the resurection in the first place. Again, that would not help unbelievers, and hey would not be resurected for the judgement, unless you're saying that all receive it, whether they believe or not. Concernng the breath of life, I must ask whether in genesis the word Neshema is actually used, or whether you infered it. Now, on the image of God; free will is impossible on a strictly physical basis. You simply can't have it. Perhaps we could continue this by email. I'm finding it more and more difficult to follow up on everything and fully understand it.

Andir said: appolose said: Andir said: If it isn't an ultimatum, what is it? You either are, or you aren't. That's pretty binary. If you aren't, you shall be denied something. Saying that he is all powerful isn't an answer to the question. What does his power have to do with humans telling each other he is all powerful? And why does he need humans to do this? Why gloat about all this power he has? To what end? To give or deny you love? How is that not an ultimatum? It's quite literally Him saying "You can either chose to come to me, or, should you dislike me, should you not love me, I will leave you alone" And that alone-ness (Yes, hell) is what we have asked for. Its what we wanted. I'm not saying that, in theology, some people like existing in torment forever, I'm saying that would rather that than God. Bear in mind, I'm saying this is Christian theology, I'm not saying whether or not its true. According to it, we get what we want. But I'm not getting what I want. I want proof, material and visible (with my own two eyes) proof that he exists before I will go out and believe such a tall tale. If God truly did want us to choose, why doesn't he give us the evidence we need to make such a decision? Why should I have to live a life of servitude to a set of rules made up by someone that will not show his face? How is that fair to us? If he did create us for the purpose of proving our "love" to him, to what end? Why would something create a species, require them to follow a set pattern of rules, require them to accept his existance, and not give those questioning the existance the solid (no questions asked) proof that they need? What's the point besides to play with us in twisted means?

What would be matieral and physical proof that god exists to you? Seriously, what could make you believe in god if he were standing right infront of you?

Wouldn't you agree with me like I said above, that any physical proof that god could give, could in fact could be the result any number of other things?

Aren't you basically asking for something you know isn't possible. Since anything physical could be made by something else, and therefore such proof would need to be not physical?  Such a thing would have to provoke a non physical expierence to make you believe.  

Basically said physical proof would have to be proven to be nothing else in existance... but the result of gods work. And people arn't anywhere near smart enough to do that. We can't even explain consiousness.

Honestly, in my book, until you can fully explain that, you can't really and fully explain anything.

God is a fat faggot and he can smite me right now for all I care.

I'm not here to say people are wrong. I'm not here to say that. Religious people like me or others, feel that we know what will happen in the end. But know what thier is to be done to save us. A "secret" sort to speak. But if we know this so called "secret". Why do we tell people about it(We can just keep it to ourselfs) Why do we preach to other people? It really is  because some of us care, some of us are told to do it and some of us are just good people.
What ever it is. We tell people about it. Even if everything I say people woun't pay attention or they did but still don't believe in God not even a little. I'll just say this then, one last thing

I wish everyone the best, take care and God bless you!.

Andir said: Grey Acumen said: Why is it that everyone who argues against the existance of God seems incapable of understanding that just because God is ALL POWERFUL does not mean that God is somehow incapable of refraining from using that power to force people to do things. This view is only held by those who are inherently weak. When you KNOW you have power, power that is yours and can never be taken away from you, there is NO NEED TO ABUSE IT. People who abuse power do it almost ALWAYS out of a lack of intelligence, out of fear of losing their power, or because the extent of their power is actually very limited in scope. God knows how the universe works, and he created humans with free will. If he did all the work for them, it would be pointless, he's god, he's all powerful, he already knows that he can succeed. The point comes from watching and guiding an imperfect being towards perfection. He knows all the rules, these rules are really tough to learn and remember, so in order to make sure it sticks, sometimes it's gotta be learned the hard way, but the right answer has to be kept out there and constantly available so people can have that choice available to make. why do math teachers inevidably insist on teaching us that 2 + 2 = 4? Because that's teh right answer, sure, there may be a bunch of jackasses that try to get you to believe it's 3. There may be other people who confuse teh issue by telling you it's 20/5ths, but it still boils down to the fact that they tell you it because that's teh answer. Then why use the power in the first place? Was God afraid of losing the power if he didn't use it? Are we toys in his box of games? And how can you prove that the answer is that there is one God? I know that if I have 2 lemons and add another 2 lemons, I'll have 4 lemons. I can see them. How are you so certain that thier is one God controlling everything? Why couldn't there be 12 Gods? What's the defining evidence that there's only one?

Because the only way for power and knowledge to have any meaning is to create with it and pass the knowledge on to those who lack it.Using his power to create life and then guide that life into understanding the world it lives in. Any decent teacher or parent can certainly understand that basic concept. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

And really, if you want to compare it to lemons, fine. if you have two lemons lined up in a row, and you're sitting so that one lemon is in front of the other, and you refuse to ever move from the position you're in, you're never going to see that there are two lemons, you'll only see one. and so it isn't observable that adding 2 lemons + 2 lemons = 4 lemons. 

Poeta said: I don't know what is right or what is wrong, to us only God does.  Andir most atheist don't belive in God because of incovinence. You say we get the "easy" way, since where following something where told. People who do abortion say its "Because we can't afford the baby" "he will be misserable". I don't thing that is the case I thing its because its an incovenience. Andir do you have any pets? Do you take care of them? Do you know anybody who has any pets? Now do you help the poor? donate monthly? weekly? to foundations? If you take care of pets but don't help the poor.(In the eyes of God your already doing wrong) See me I love animals.I can't stand watching a animal suffer. But God tells me I should help people first, then animals second. "If you cannot just accept it, you have failed and will never accept it."  At least that's what you're telling me." Edit- No one can fail. If your really really really intesresting, give prayer a try, attend bible studies. Or just read the bible, give it a chance and figure why would God do such things. To me personally (Life is a test, Jesus wasn't here to help people, to help the good ones prevail, to end suffering, world hunger, pain. Jesus was here to save us) "Except in this discussion, you're telling me that I will forever be lost because I'm discussing the idea and not getting the answers or proof that is needed.  And why can't I have that proof?" No one is lost everyone can be saved. But let me ask you aquestion. We can agree God works on mysterious ways. So lets say one day people around you(your family) start praying for you, asking God to give you faith . So one day your driving and BAM! you just went through a terrible accident, and became paralyze from the neck down.  But after the accident, your faith in God becomes strong. For the rest of your life your paralyzed but you belive in God with greath faith. Now Andir is it unfair? That you had to go through a accident to belive in God (and have eternal life)  Or is it  fair? Since anyone can argue eternity=better than 80+years paralyze. Now thing about it, most people for thier inconvience will say its unfair and that God shoun't do that. Paul(a person who murder christians, became a beliver after an accident causing him to lose his vision)

But you don't understand.  I refuse to believe in something that does not show itself.  How is me getting into an accident and losing all my motor functions considered "finding God"?  That makes no sense to me.

Now, theoretically, the laws set forth are good rules to live by to promote social growth and for humans to work together.  I'm not saying the idea isn't a good one.  It makes sense for the common good of humans and human kind.  But these laws could have been scribed by humans and passed along for generations as the word of God without question because they made sense.  But it doesn't prove that God exists.  It just proves that a set of solid rules promotes social growth and well being.  It however places us above animals who I believe are simply un-evolved representations of smarter beings. It puts a heirarchy on life, which I think is totally self destructive since I believe we are all made up of the same particulant matter and our actions are the circumstance of compounded patterns in our genetic makeup.  Don't get me, wrong, the human body is complex and unique.  The simple fact that we are talking to each other across the Internet is amazing, but it doesn't give me proof of some higher being.  It just tells me that we are gaining a grasp of what makes the world tick.  We are harnessing the power of atoms and using them for our greater good.

This is not what I'm arguing.  What I'm arguing is that this God figure people keep talking about has set these rules and somehow controls them like a judge.  This is convenient because it puts fear into the minds of those that would believe in an invisible creature that decides our final end.  It's like a death sentence in the modern judicial sentence.  If you break enough rules, you will cease to exist.  Except... with your interpretation, it's somehow higher than all of us, without evidence.  Like I said, it's nice and all, but there's nothing concrete in my eyes holding it to be the final word.  We will all eventually die, be buried 6 feet under and reconstitute our matter into the Earth from which it came.  The circle of the conservation of matter continues.  What I have a problem with, is the idea that we have a soul, and that somehow our actions will be judged by something that does not comply with the physical world's rules, but forces it's will on the physical world.

This is my problem with the idea of God.  No evidence.

appolose said: senseinobaka said: appolose said: senseinobaka: "Both groups enjoy the ransom sacrafice and are made clean from adamic sin when they die." No, they don't. In Revelations, and many other places, it specifically says that there will be a judgement, and that some will go to heaven, and others to the lake of fire. If they were indeed cleansed of their sins, then they would not be condemned, contrary to that which does happen. And as for the context of the Corinthian verse, all throughout the chapter it refers to the body as a tent in which we live. "2)You claim that humans are some kind of soul/spirit hybrid. Genesis does not say that. They are just a soul" Again, in Genesis, it says that man was created in his image, and that man had the breath of life, distinguishing us from animal life, and forcing us to accept some other property than just the phyical, as God does not have a physical image in which we could be created. OK, now you are refering to Rev 20:13-15. First off, you are confirming exactly what I am saying. I'll run a comparison between what you are saying and what the bible is saying. 1)Rev 20:13 says that the sea, death, and hades gave up those who are dead. You are saying that only those who are faithful or saved are released from death. Where you went wrong. You ignored the many times the bible says the resurrection will be of both righteous and unrighteous AND you are putting words in the bible's mouth. Rev 20:13 puts no limit on who is being resurrected, you are. 2)Next Rev 20:13 says that those resurrected will be resurrected and judged according to there deeds. You say that they will be judged according to the deed commited in their sinful life. Where you went wrong. You again ignored scripture. This time romans that says that sins are forgiven upon death. Resurrected individuals will be resurrected to an Earth ruled by God's Kingdom and these individuals will no longer be shackled by sin. So for the first time they will have the ability to chose their lifestyle as free moral agents free from adamic sin. They will be judged according to there deeds when they are on this fair playing ground. Those who chose to rebel against God will be thrown into the lake of fire and experience second death, the one they will never be resurrected from.(Rev 20:14) [as a side note, I cant imagine someone that dumb, but the bible fortells MANY being that dumb]   As for your claim on creation. You focus on "breath of life" as being something only man has received. This is incorrect according to the bible. The word for "breath of life" is neshama. Neshama is used again in Genesis at Gen 7:22-23. This is during the flood, and it states "Everything in which the breath of the force of life[NESHEMA] was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died. Thus he wiped out every existing thing that was on the surface of the ground, from man to beast, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, and they were wiped off the earth; and only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving" So clearly animals also received the breath of life. Furthermore, being made in gods image doesnt mean we are spirit creatures. We can't even see spirit creatures. It refers to the major difference between animal and man. Like God, we have free will, and are wise, thinkers, and follow morals. We have the same emotions and qualities that god has, such as love.   No, I'm not saying they won't be resurected (given a new body), I'm saying they won't all be going to heaven. I postulate there is a differnece. Also, you seem to mention that Christ's death enabled the resurection in the first place. Again, that would not help unbelievers, and hey would not be resurected for the judgement, unless you're saying that all receive it, whether they believe or not. Concernng the breath of life, I must ask whether in genesis the word Neshema is actually used, or whether you infered it. Now, on the image of God; free will is impossible on a strictly physical basis. You simply can't have it. Perhaps we could continue this by email. I'm finding it more and more difficult to follow up on everything and fully understand it.

 I agree with your postulation 100%. If you are talking about heaven then you are talking about a very very small portion of mankind. The bible says that people will be resurrected to an Earthly paradise, or earth under gods kingdom. However, it does mention in Revelation that there is a small number of chosen ones that would enjoy the privilede of serving in heaven as kings and priests with Jesus. I didnt want to get into it, but thats what 2 Cor 5 talks alot about. But these chosen do not have a soul or spirit that lives on after they die. They to are resurrected. This is called in the Greek scriptures, the 1st resurrection. 2 Cor 5 calls them a "new creature." They are literally a new creation of Gods, a human that dies and is resurrected to the spirit realm. Jesus of course is the first one. But like I said, thats a small portion of mankind. Revelation says the number of corulers Jesus will choose is 144,000.

Also Jesus gave his life for all mankind. All mankind was repurchased, even those who may not put faith in him. That's one of the things that makes it truly the greatest act of love ever. Even those who thrash Jesus in this very forum were ransomed.

Futhermore, Both scriptures in Genesis use the word neshema. I put the parenthetical citation to show where neshema was used, but ofcourse I put it besides the wrong "life." It should follow the "life" after the phrase "breath of life".