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Zod95 said:
Incubi said:

So, the main problem for 3rd parties ability to sell to the Nintendo audience is that the Nintendo audience is very picky when it comes to quality. They are also unusually intelligent and aren't manipulated by massive marketing budgets.The Playstation audience is the exact opposite, and are easily fooled by hype coming from massive marketing campaigns.

I agree. When I look at the best Wii games sold this year, I just come to the conclusion that Nintendo audience is very picky when it comes to quality, otherwise games like Just Dance and Zumba Fitness wouldn't be in the top, would they?

I'm talking about the WiiU owners (Nintendo fans), not the Wii owners (soccer moms and grand parents). Of cource, the latter group might buy into WiiU this xmas, but that would mean the WiiU would end up selling gangbusters wouldn't it? Surely we cant have that.



Around the Network

"It's not really a conspiracy if everyone is out to get you." - Matt Costello (Mattavell1)

http://nintendoenthusiast.com/article/nintendo-sony-microsoft-wii-ps4-xbone/



Things that need to die in 2016: Defeatist attitudes of Nintendo fans

Seece said:
POE said:
Of course COD is gonna sell a lot more on PS4 than Wii U: Wii U´s library is far better than the upcoming PS4´s one and those poor people buying one need to play something to justify their purchase.
Also, this type of things happens when your first party offerings are weak. Let´s compare the sales of Super Mario 3D World to the Killzone: Shadow Fall ones.

I agree PS4's line up leaves a lot to be desired. But then so does WiiU's. Exacty what makes it so much better? And if you're gonna throw Wii Fit and Wii Sports in there lets end the argument now! In terms of core games the line ups look like this

WiiI

Sonic Olympics
Mario 3D World
Call of Duty
Assassins Creed

PS4

Killzone
Knack
Call of Duty
Assassins Creed
Battlefield


What am I missing?



you are missing Pikmin3, The Wonderful 101, Sonic Lost World, Lego City, Wind Waker HD, New Super Mario (and Luigi) Bros U, Monster Hunter Tri Ultimate HD, Zombi U



POE said:
Seece said:
POE said:
Of course COD is gonna sell a lot more on PS4 than Wii U: Wii U´s library is far better than the upcoming PS4´s one and those poor people buying one need to play something to justify their purchase.
Also, this type of things happens when your first party offerings are weak. Let´s compare the sales of Super Mario 3D World to the Killzone: Shadow Fall ones.

I agree PS4's line up leaves a lot to be desired. But then so does WiiU's. Exacty what makes it so much better? And if you're gonna throw Wii Fit and Wii Sports in there lets end the argument now! In terms of core games the line ups look like this

WiiI

Sonic Olympics
Mario 3D World
Call of Duty
Assassins Creed

PS4

Killzone
Knack
Call of Duty
Assassins Creed
Battlefield


What am I missing?



you are missing Pikmin3, The Wonderful 101, Sonic Lost World, Lego City, Wind Waker HD, New Super Mario (and Luigi) Bros U, Monster Hunter Tri Ultimate HD, Zombi U

Really now??? Games that came out and had no impact? How exactly is that great for WiiU owners like yourself who have already bought all those games?



 

Zod95 said:
Final-Fan said:

2a2a.  "if that game, doesn't present a gameplay enough sophisticated to be clearly differentiated from the shoot-em-ups from previous generations and/or content significantly bigger and deeper...then it's retro" ... "First, I didn't say the genre isn't developing. I said the game seemed retro to me."
Don't you see the contradiction here?  You first link being retro to lack of development WITHIN THE GENRE, then you say the opposite.

No, I don't. Do you? Really? Ok, I will explain then...If a game presents lack of development within the genre, that is a sufficient but not necessary condition to consider it retro. In other words, if that condition verifies, then the game is retro. If that condition doesn't verify, it may be or may not be retro. The game may be more evolved than the shoot-em-ups from the previous generation but it doesn't seem to be as evolved as the games from the other genres.

Also, just for you to be sure: I didn't say, I'm not saying and I won't say the genre isn't developing (I don't even know it well!). What I said was "if that game doesn't present a gameplay enough sophisticated...".

Final-Fan said:

2a2b.  I disagree that that SHMUP has worse graphics than "most" games of its gen.  If you compare it to a game that had 10 times or 100 times the budget, employees, etc. to work on it, I'm not surprised that it isn't as good.  But "most" games of the gen don't have that advantage.  If there was a publisher willing to put Killzone-level "AAA" resources into a SHMUP, I'd expect it to look as good.

Are you considering trash software too? Then, maybe you're right. Quite frankly, I don't have any idea about the number of trash games, and I don't even care. For me, decent games (or better) is what counts. Anyway, trash games are not 7th gen games. So, in regards to my claim, I reaffirm it.

Final-Fan said:

Before I move on, however ... "Some artists are just more talented than others. That means, for the same work hours, they will produce better pieces of art than others."  Yeah.  Guess what?  People that are better at their job than other people usually get PAID MORE.

First of all, that "usually" is quite poetical. I wish that was true. Second, being better (overall better) is not the same as being just more talented in arts. Third, a game isn't made only with artists. You need many more types of professionals, including programmers...and that's where the tech and the objective achievements of a game enter (do you remember?...those that Nintendo isn't focused in).

But if you disagree with my view and you trust so much on that "better at their job...get paid more" (which I believe it's for you to convince yourself that Nintendo invests a lot because it has highly artistic games) then look at the development costs of Nintendo games. Even better, look at the top 50 of the best sellers ever and then look at the top 50 of the most expensive games ever. In one of the tops you will find plenty of Nintendo games. In the other you will be lucky if you find any. After doing that, get back to me and tell me if you still believe of that logic.

Final-Fan said:

2a3b.  I take it from your silence on the matter that you now concede to my evidence that Metroid Prime is a deep game. 

You can conclude whatever you want from my silence. Most of the times it will mean "it's hopeless to talk about this matter with this guy"...but you can simply ignore that possibility if it makes you feel better.

Anyway, if this matter is so important for you, I will give you another chance. You said: "All my earlier points still stand; and if we were to peruse the individual reviews, they might well provide objective evidence of depth.  Try again, if you like.". If they might, then go for it. You need to try, not me. It wasn't me who claimed Metroid Prime is deep. Everything I claim, I try to support with facts, I don't expect the others to do that for me. My claims --> my facts --> your judgment. Your claims --> your facts --> my judgment. That's how it works in forums. If you adopt an attitude of "I claim something and then I've immediately won unless someone proves the opposite", you'll just look silly. Claims are respected when they come with facts and ignored when they don't.

Final-Fan said:

2a4b.  But you didn't stop at saying "you have not yet successfully come up with any evidence of Nintendo games fitting the criteria".  You said "I actually know that there is one and only one Nintendo game that qualifies".  That is a claim that YOU made that is demonstrably false.

No, I haven't. You're blatantly lying and you can't get any sentence I've written saying that. You're in a forum, everything is written. Those kind of lies don't last long.

Final-Fan said:

The reason I'm reluctant to engage you on this point is that you have given me a lot of criteria that are really hard to research.  For instance the question of square mileage in a game.  I could guess that Metroid Prime is big enough to qualify.  But I don't know.  I could run around the Internet trying to find that out, but I don't really want to when it's possible that the answer isn't even there to be found.  You say that if the game is really big then the information will be available, but I think that's overly optimistic.

You think so because you're convinced Metroid Prime has a big area. Most probably, it doesn't. I tried to find its map size and it's really hard to get that info (which already leads me to believe it's not very big) and the best guess is 100km2. You need to understand that 300km2 is BIG, not every game is able to get close to that. Still, some games have much more than that already BIG area. What I expect is for you to tell me whether Nintendo has any game in that condition. Again, to struggle for the lower limit isn't enough. To qualify by that requirement, I'm expecting examples where you don't have ANY doubt they fulfill it. Games with many hundreds or even thousands of km2. And believe me, when that's the case, the internet tells you so.

Final-Fan said:

Our debate is so sprawling that I am not eager to add this new, very large and vague debate to open up.  I tried to resolve it by coming up with examples in an easily identifiable category, but now that I found out how very narrow that category is, I am not eager to go into all the other hard-to-research categories.  Not because I am afraid of the answer, but because finding out the answer would be really annoying and time consuming to attempt to do.

You're right when you say the categories are narrow. But think about this: when I ask for you to tell me the top 10 devs that make more money, that is even more narrowed...and guess what...Nintendo is on the top of that already extremely narrowed list. So, what I'm asking is absolutely fair. If by that criteria Nintendo gets surpassed by Sony, Microsoft, EA, Ubisoft, Codemasters, Activision, Rockstar, Atari and many others...that's a lot for a company that makes so much money and that, along with the 2 tops I've asked you to compare with each other (top sales / top costs), suggests Nintendo is more greedy than most (if not all) of the other major game developers.

In regards to the time-consuming research, you're wrong. Most of the requirements are things you don't even need to search if you've played the game. If a Nintendo game has fully editable levels, you'll know that for sure if you had played the game. And, since you're a Nintendo fan, you have surely played already a lot of Nintendo games (and presumably the most relevant ones). If you can't find any of those to qualify by any of the requirements, then my friend, I'm afraid Nintendo won't deliver the 10 games I initially asked for you to tell.

Final-Fan said:

2b.  Warioware has hundreds of minigames.  Thus qualifying for your hundreds of "gameplay variants" criterion.

Humm...how can I say?...No. Gameplay variants are variants from the same gameplay. Different mini-games have different gameplays. I'm expecting big boulders and you come up with sand. Understand this: a big game is harder to produce than 2 small games. It's harder to dig a deep hole than 2 with a half of the depth each. The complexity grows exponentially...so does the number of possibilities in that game.

Final-Fan said:

For Brain Age, what you said perfectly fits, so it too counts.

So you didn't mean to say gameplay elements but gameplay variants. Then tell me: variants of what? I was seing some videos and the game seems to be too simple to have hundreds of gameplay variants. But I will give you the chance to explain yourself and then, if I see the game really meets that requirement, that will be 2 for Nintendo.

Final-Fan said:

4.  Looks like Sega did do that type of game before Nintendo did, albeit in a grossly inferior fashion.  I wouldn't say "Sega showed Nintendo how to do it" when Sega's implementation was so primitive, and Nintendo's game expanded on the concept so greatly

That's precisely what I think about Mario 64 and Sonic Adventure 1. Now you understand me

2a2.  OK.  You suck at clearly defining your terms from the outset. 

2a3a.  Please direct me to those lists.  More importantly the development costs one, I presume we can agree to use VGC software numbers unless you say otherwise. 

2a3b.  I've made claims I've backed up.  Specific claims about depth in a Metroid game.  Aside from the ONE THING I said about game reviewers possbily having evidence of MP's depth in their reviews, what do you have to say about MY OWN arguments for its depth?  You talk about my burden of coming to you with stuff to back up my claim, but when I've done so you haven't even addressed it! 

2a4b1. 
ME: 
You said "I actually know that there is one and only one Nintendo game that qualifies".
  (Note:  this was obviously meant as a paraphrase, not a direct quote; if the quotation marks confused you then I apologize for that.) 
YOU:  "You're blatantly lying and you can't get any sentence I've written saying that."
YOU, PREVIOUSLY:  "But the point is: Nintendo, your so beloved billionaire dev with dozens of critically acclaimed games and the biggest veteran in the industry...has...just...1...game...qualified..." 

That is a categorical statement.  You don't qualify it with "that I know of" or anything else to suggest that there may be other qualifying games of Nintendo's that you are simply unaware of.  You are claiming that there is only one Nintendo game (series) meeting your criteria.  Your words mean the same thing as the claim I attributed to you, even though you didn't use the exact words that I used to describe your claim.  If you misspoke, then whatever.  It's not my responsibility to know when you are saying things you don't mean. 

2a4b2. 
I don't think you're lying but I would like to double check this (MP area); please show me where you got this information. 

2a4b3. 
The category in question became SO narrow that it's not surprising that Nintendo may simply be a developer that doesn't do that sort of game regardless of willingness to "work hard".  Not all developers, even the really big ones, do all sorts of games.  How many Pokemon-style games does EA make?  How many kart racers does Microsoft have under its belt? 

2a4b4.  I'm sorry to disappoint you but of the hundreds of Nintendo games I've played a relative handful.  I've played many Mario games, and Zelda, a couple Pokemon, etc. but I haven't played Baten Kaitos, haven't played Eternal Darkness, haven't played most of their games.  And I don't perfectly remember them either.  Actually, though, you could say that Mario Paint has editable levels.  See?  I'm adding to this all the time! 

2b1.  You're saying making a single game with 100 different characters with player statistics that are minutely different, is much harder than making 100 distinct mini-games?  I'm sorry but that is delusional.  The work put into adding another 100 characters with minutely different stats is relatively minimal vs. making another 100 minigames.  Heck, a game like Final Fantasy Tactics RANDOMLY GENERATES such characters!  The FIFA game (for example) simply has them locked into a certain set.  Would you say it's accurate that FFT has an infinite number of playable characters, or at a minimum, thousands upon thousands to whatever limit is defined by the number of variables that goes into character generation?  How much extra work does that mean Square put into its game versus having a set stable of characters you can recruit, say 30? 

2b2.  For example, one Brain Age game advertises having 50 different Sudoku puzzles you can do.  Surely that is pretty similar to having 50 different soccer players you can play.  And obviously there is more in the game than just Sudoku puzzles, enough to pass your limit. 

4.  You are the only person I've ever seen or heard of that thinks SA is as superior to SM64 as SMG is to SA2.  But you're entitled to that opinion.  Or, if that isn't exactly what your opinion is, you're entitled to whatever opinion you have. 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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Seece said:
POE said:
Seece said:

I agree PS4's line up leaves a lot to be desired. But then so does WiiU's. Exacty what makes it so much better? And if you're gonna throw Wii Fit and Wii Sports in there lets end the argument now! In terms of core games the line ups look like this
WiiU
Sonic Olympics
Mario 3D World
Call of Duty
Assassins Creed
PS4
Killzone
Knack
Call of Duty
Assassins Creed
Battlefield

What am I missing?

you are missing Pikmin3, The Wonderful 101, Sonic Lost World, Lego City, Wind Waker HD, New Super Mario (and Luigi) Bros U, Monster Hunter Tri Ultimate HD, Zombi U

Really now??? Games that came out and had no impact? How exactly is that great for WiiU owners like yourself who have already bought all those games?

It's relevant because you were claiming to show the two systems' libraries of desirable games side by side, but left out several pretty significant games.  I mean really, leaving off Pikmin and MARIO in a list of Nintendo games?  While claiming that Sonic Olympics is one of the four most notable games on the Wii U?  What is your logic here?? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
Seece said:
POE said:
Seece said:

I agree PS4's line up leaves a lot to be desired. But then so does WiiU's. Exacty what makes it so much better? And if you're gonna throw Wii Fit and Wii Sports in there lets end the argument now! In terms of core games the line ups look like this
WiiU
Sonic Olympics
Mario 3D World
Call of Duty
Assassins Creed
PS4
Killzone
Knack
Call of Duty
Assassins Creed
Battlefield

What am I missing?

you are missing Pikmin3, The Wonderful 101, Sonic Lost World, Lego City, Wind Waker HD, New Super Mario (and Luigi) Bros U, Monster Hunter Tri Ultimate HD, Zombi U

Really now??? Games that came out and had no impact? How exactly is that great for WiiU owners like yourself who have already bought all those games?

It's relevant because you were claiming to show the two systems' libraries of desirable games side by side, but left out several pretty significant games.  I mean really, leaving off Pikmin and MARIO in a list of Nintendo games?  While claiming that Sonic Olympics is one of the four most notable games on the Wii U?  What is your logic here?? 

I believe he was talking about the ''new'' and upcoming games.



Dv8thwonder said:

"It's not really a conspiracy if everyone is out to get you." - Matt Costello (Mattavell1)

http://nintendoenthusiast.com/article/nintendo-sony-microsoft-wii-ps4-xbone/


That article just blew my mind...seriously it all makes sense to me now.

What have they done to the gaming industry? what have WE done to the gaming industry?



@Kane No he isn't, then he shouldn't include Assassin or Cod for WiiU since they have released lol. Nice try though.
@Seece So much spin its hilarious, games that came out and had no impact? So are you only counting games that will have an impact?



phenom08 said:
@Kane No he isn't, then he shouldn't include Assassin or Cod for WiiU since they have released lol. Nice try though.
@Seece So much spin its hilarious, games that came out and had no impact? So are you only counting games that will have an impact?

his holiday, for seling systems, and games for Nintendo fans. Exctly how does 101, Pikmin ect fall into either of those? Neither will sell systems, and Nintendo fans have alreadybought them whe they released. So I refer to my earlier statement. What games do Nintendo fans have coming and what is going to sell systems?

The list is comparable to PS4.