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And this is my reply to John's mail he sent on here. He happens to think, once the bottom falls out, all the third party companies will run back to Nintendo. What I hold is they will be out of business. Anyhow, here is my reply:

Thing that happens is, if the bottoms falls out, they go out of business. There will be no third party running to Nintendo, but will be ones out of business. And then you look for all the venture capital to leave also, and then there is a crash. You have Nintendo as a survivor of a shrinking market, not a dominant player.

And I would say you would be correct about the PC model running against Nintendo, and people who say Nintendo MUST go third-party to survive, also miss the point. HOWEVER, I think when things shift, it is easy to be off. I would say to look beyond the PC market also, which is also shrinking, to the smart devices out there. Android is growing at this point, and it is proving a nemesis for Nintendo also. Android has almost all the traits of the PC market, right down to the instability. Look for Android devices to flood the market, and then end up going into Asia, China and third-world at this point.

Thing is, none of this is running back to Nintendo. And reduction to Nintendo as a survivor is going to mean a much smaller market. And then Android and other end will end up catching up. You need to seriously see the downsides here, and be aware of them.

One BIG factor here is that videogame is now established as part of the culture and is going all over the place, with free to play as the normal model. Yes, I did see the Iwata talk you posted, and also have based my views in part to what he said there, because there is NO guarantee Nintendo isn't going to lose it. Parents are buying kids smart devices, and then the 99 cent appeal is sucking up interest. Look at what the big titles are, as far as mindshare goes. They come from portable devices, NOT Nintendo. Angry Birds is bigger than Mario at this point, as far as buzz and interest. Thing is that Nintendo is rehashing IP, and it is getting old.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/09/29/angry-birds-is-bigger-than-mario

This is as far as buzz goes.



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somehow this made it in n4g
http://n4g.com/news/1330842/the-anti-nintendo-conspiracy-exposed-in-broad-daylight/pen



I really can not see that happening... The only way that to ever apply is to be a sanity effect in Eternal darkness.



You know I was gonna leave the forum for the night but I just can't let this post from Daisuke72 stand unchallenged.
This is gonna be good. Good God this is gonna be good.

Daisuke72 said:

So basically what I got from this thread was that Nintendo apparently has a master plan and is the only one who has good 1st party support, which is total bullshit by the way. Sony has the most diverse lineup of 1st party exclusives available, you can argue quality here but Sony most definitely has a great 1st party, and Microsoft has Halo, a series which will sell systems regardless. 


Understand this fact, Daisuke72.

Nintendo Is THE BEST Developer In The Videogame Business.
Commercially, Critically, Influentially. THE BEST. Not Good. THE BEST.
That is a FACT.

And if you don't BELIEVE that fact let me take you to VGChartz's Game Database.
The Top 10 games are ALL Nintendo.

1. Wii Sports (Wii), 2. Super Mario Bros. (NES), 3. Mario Kart Wii (Wii), 4. Wii Sports Resort (Wii),
5. Pokémon Red & Green [Blue] (GB), 6. Tetris (GB), 7. New Super Mario Bros. (DS), 8. Wii Play (Wii),
9. Duck Hunt (NES), 10. New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii)

Even if you take out the perennial pack-ins like Wii Sports, Super Mario Bros., Tetris & Duck Hunt, the Top 10 STILL is ALL Nintendo.

1. Mario Kart Wii (Wii), 2. Wii Sports Resort (Wii), 3. Pokémon Red & Green [Blue] (GB), 4. New Super Mario Bros. (DS),
5. Wii Play (Wii), 6. New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii), 7. Nintendogs (DS), 8. Pokémon Silver & Gold (GBC),
9. Wii Fit (Wii), 10. Mario Kart DS (DS)

The only game to come close to challenging this juggernaut of titles is Rockstar's legendary Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for the PS2.
And that one comes in at only #16! Wii Fit Plus is ahead of it at #15! And after San Andreas is Super Mario World for SNES at #17!
A few non-Nintendo games start peeking through at this point like Microsoft's Kinect Adventures! for the 360 at #18, Rockstar's Grand Theft Auto: Vice City for the PS2 at #23, Activision/Infinity Ward's Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 - 360 version - at #26, & Sony/Polyphony Digital's Gran Turismo A-Spec for the PS2 at #27.
But throughout that Top 50 Nintendo games litter the charts. Same goes for the Top 100.
And I find it ironic that despite the 360's reputation as a FPS box, the system had its greatest selling game when it mimicked Wii through Kinect Adventures!

That's just the Commercial side of the equation though.

We also know about Nintendo's Critical Acclaim throughout the industry.
Who can forget Famitsu's 40 out of 40 Platinum score for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time? The first EVER to get a perfect score from that magazine?
How can we miss Brain Age's Edinburgh Interactive Entertainment Festival 2006 Edge Award or the 10th Annual Interactive Achievement Award for Handheld Game of the Year in 2007 from the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences?
What about Wii Fit & its winning of the Chrysler Design Innovation Award in 2008, Popular Mechanics' Breakthrough Award in 2007, Computer Entertainment Supplier's Association's Grand Award/Game of the Year & Award for Excellence at the 2008 Japan Game Awards?
What about Super Metroid's critical acclaim from Electronic Gaming Monthly who in 1994 named it Game of the Month that May, gave it an Editor's Choice Award then an award of Best Action Game of 1994 that same year, then called it Best Game of All Time in 2003? What about being placed on GamesRadar's & ScrewAttack's lists as THE #1 Best Super Nintendo game of All Time?
Did you forget about Super Smash Bros. Melee getting IGN's Readers' Choice Award for Best Game of the Year for 2001?

And if you want to talk about Nintendo's Influential power, we'll be here all day.
I'm not even gonna go into the hardware side of Nintendo which has CONSTANTLY & CONSISTENTLY shaped the way we play games for over 30 years.
The Donkey Kong Game & Watch handheld that led to the Control Pad (D-pad) & the overall shape of the Famicom/NES controller, a standard which we STILL use today; SNES' L & R buttons, diamond layout for the on-face action buttons, the action buttons' red-yellow-green-blue color-coding format; N64's analog stick & RUMBLE, GC's functional wireless by Wavebird, DS's touchscreen, Wii's motion control, to scratch the surface.

No I'm not gonna get into that. I'll just stick to the software side.

Donkey Kong & Super Mario Bros. How many platformers came out of this mold since these games came out? Do you think Mega Man would exist without them?
The Legend of Zelda. How many RPGs sprang up after this action-adventure title stirred it up on the Famicom Disk System & then the NES?
Super Mario Kart. Do you KNOW HOW many cartoony racers have been trying to touch the hem of this game's garment?
Star Fox. How much did this SNES game influence the development of polygonal 3D graphics? Aren't we still in the after effects this shift?
Super Mario 64. How many 3D platformers came out of THIS mold? How many contemporary side-scrollers tried to make the switch like Mario did? How many were successful at it?
Pokémon Red & Green [Blue]. What do you think led to all this Digimon, Bakugan stuff? Monster Rancher, Monster Hunter? What about its influence on the Tamagotchi craze? Do you think this game had a little bit to do with the Chao Adventure VMU game within Dreamcast's Sonic Adventure?
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Look at how much this game shaped action-adventure titles in 3D space.
Super Smash Bros. The game that changed the world of fighting games. I think its name is PlayStation All-Stars, I forget.
Mario Party. How many games have tried to match this multiplayer minigame madness since it first debuted?
Metroid Prime. How much did this game impact the look & feel of later first-person shooters?
WarioWare, Inc. The game that taught everybody that fun could be had in 5 seconds & could be done with simple graphics.
Nintendogs. All those pet sims...
Brain Age. Do you KNOW what this game set off?
New Super Mario Bros. The return to 2D in the midst of the Only-3D mentality.
Wii Sports. 'Nuff said.
Wii Play. 'Nuff said. (secret return of The Zapper & 'Light Gun' games)
Wii Fit. 'Nuff said. (Zumba, Jenny McCarthy, & the whole rebirth of exergaming)

This is not only my opinion that they are THE BEST. It is a documentable FACT that they are THE BEST.
And have been for over 30 years.

Sony might have the MOST 1st party studios in its portfolio but they don't have the BEST 1st party & the sales charts, critical acclaim, industrial influence reflect that.
DAIRANTOU!
PlayStation don't have the All-Star. Nintendo has the All-Star.
They're the Bros. that make the Smash Hits.

Daisuke72 said:

Also, arguing about graphics not mattering anymore and PS4 and Xbone being overpowered is nonsense. PC's have been doing this for almost three years, the consoles will match a high end PC from years ago, you honestly expect the Wii U to be powerful enough up to the years, say 2017 with only 2GB of RAM?

My phone has the same amount of RAM as the Wii U, my phone has a GPU almost on par with current gen's, which Wii U's gpu is on par with. Part of the reason why the Wii U is failing because Nintendo thought the tablet gimmick would induce Wii like sales, it didn't. They got away with the Wii because most of the people who bought the Wii were non-gamers who didn't care for games in general and were more into the motion control gimmick. Nintendo tried to reuse this method but it won't work simply because the Wii U tablet isn't that special, and the Xbone has smartglass and the PS4 has PS Vita and PS mobile.


RAM? Seriously? You're talking about RAM?
Um, when you go to a retail store like say Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, & such, where are the console games located? Where are the PC games located?
What's a good ratio you can give for how many console games on shelves there are to PC games on shelves?
Console games usually have security measures on them, don't they? Hidden behind a door of plexiglass that has to be unlocked or a title card being placed on a shelf to be turned in at register for game behind the desk, right?
PC games are usually left wide open without all of that runaround, aren't they?
Console games out number PC games at about 10 to 1, 20 to 1, or 50 to 1, most times don't they?
I know for sure Gamestop is wall-to-wall with console games while the PC games are on one little section or a little stand in the middle of the store.

Nintendo was responsible for creating that reality all the way back in the 1980s.
Their World of Nintendo displays in stores raised the value of console games in the minds of the general public.
The craze for their products led to inevitable theft & over the years retailers have put up security measures to secure their sales.
Nintendo's competition helped Nintendo elevate console games over PC games further because all of them are striving for a piece of Nintendo's pie trying to stand as the King of Consoles (which they aren't. Nintendo is).

All this tech tech tech talk comes from the world of PC developers.
They have been shaken by Nintendo's emergence in this industry & still haven't come to grips with it YET!
They want to shape consoles in PC's image as revenge for losing their market to the consoles.
Nintendo uses tech but you never hear them get so caught up in the details of the components of the machine.
They're always talking about the experience they hope their games will convey THROUGH that machine.
The Big Picture.

PC guys love to pore over all the technical hardware & software intricacies.
All that boring engineer talk that goes right over most people's heads.
That stuff needs to be known in the production of the machines but they put covers over the guts for a reason.
You're not selling to engineers. You're selling to regular people. People who are NOT knowledgeable about all this stuff & didn't spend years training in it.
It's interesting to know the details behind what makes the magic on a console but that's the key word: MAGIC.

MAGIC & SCIENCE are basically the same word: Knowledge.
What's really the difference between a sage & a mage?
Jesus & the gifts of the Magis, The Three Wise Men.
Wise, Wize, Wiz, Wizard, Wise-ard. Wizdom, Wisdom.
Wisdom. To be Conscient of what's right & what's wrong.
Con-Scient. Con-Science. With-Science. Wit Science. In CONjunction WITH Science. CONjoined to Science.
Conscientious. Conscientiousness. Con-Sense. With Sense. Wit Sense. Wizense. Wisen.

The Magician KNOWS. The Scientist KNOWS.
The only difference between the 2 is that the magician doesn't tell you all the steps wanting you to be surprised at the end.
The scientist takes all the surprise out breaking down each & every step from the beginning.
We need both of them but when presenting a surprise you don't blab all the secrets.
You remember how Iwata loves saying Nintendo is about giving you meaningful surprises.
In this videogaming enterprise, you ruin the prize when you dig too much around the package (just like Christmas presents).
This all lines up with Nintendo's roots as a playing card company. Card tricks are a magician's go-to routine after all.

Wii had less RAM than both the XBox 360 & PlayStation 3. It did not hurt it in the least.
Have you forgotten the quote I have been posting all throughout this thread?
Satoru Iwata, E3 2004: "The time when horsepower alone made an important difference is over."

Sony & Microsoft are about to hit a wall chasing this rabbit called 100% photorealism. Graphics are finished & the horsepower pushed to deliver them is unnecessary overkill.
You using your phone to make your point underlines how silly it is to worry about some RAM when so many people are playing games on their phones now.
Don't look now but the blocky N64-looking Minecraft XBox 360 Edition has already sold 8 million in a combination of physical & digital sales.
Wii U specs are more than fine. They will allow devs to deliver those kinds of real-like games at cheaper budgets.

Daisuke72 said:

Also let's not forget the marketing for the Wii U is downright terrible, it's almost as bad the Vita's. You guys keep bringing up the Vita and comparing it to the PS4 which is funny considering that none of my real life friend didn't know the Vita even existed until they found my PSP and I brought it up, and yet we all pre-ordered a PS4. Marketing goes a long way, if the Vita was called PSP 2 and the Wii U was called Wii 2 or something to that effect, sales for both would be better than they are currently.

Problem is, I don't know a single person in real life who owns a Wii U, nor do I know someone who's still playing their Wii. Judging by the OP, it's almost like you forgot that Nintendo's 1st party didn't sell 100M Wii's.

The motion control gimmick did.


Oh we can agree about Wii U's marketing but we cannot agree on Nintendo calling it Wii 2 or Nintendo's 1st party not selling 100 million Wiis (don't look on VGChartz.com's homepage. Wii's at 99.9 million worldwide at the time of this writing) or that motion control is a mere gimmick.

Nintendo can do better job with marketing for sure & we see The Regginator going on late night TV himself to do just that.
But what you don't understand is that Wii U will get most of its sales from word-of-mouth which is built right in to the system. Organically.
It's just a matter of that first spark. And that spark may come from the 3DS also a word-of-mouth type of system.
You will see the breakthrough soon, Daisuke72, & your mind will be blown by how much Nintendo "turned this around".
And yes people still play their Wiis. Why wouldn't they? They bought it, they enjoy it, & it's fun. I'm one of them.

And if Nintendo's 1st party didn't sell 100 million Wiis then who did? Remember, they had virtually no 3rd party with them this gen, remember?
Ubisoft hung in there with them along with a handful of others but Nintendo damn near sold this system all by themselves. Who made Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Super Mario Galaxy 1 & 2?

If motion control's a gimmick then everything's a gimmick including HD.
Motion control by Wiimote changed the entire industry. There would be no Kinect, no Move, & no attempt from Microsoft & Sony to make their systems more friendly to the audience Wii cultivated.
Remember XBox 360 changed their entire menu interface to follow in Wii's footsteps. From the Dashboard's Blades to this New XBox Experience with the Avatars.
PlayStation 3 promoted Sackboy from LittleBigPlanet in mascot form.
Wii never went HD with all the first-person shooters.

Motion is the new standard. That's why XBox One promotes the new Kinect first & foremost & PS4 still packs in Move as well as this EyeToy/PlayStation Eye/Kinect-ish thing called the PlayStation Camera.
Looks like HD was the real gimmick since they're still pushing that 'more power, more graphics' hardware argument despite that argument being thoroughly defeated last go around by a weaker SD system called Wii.

Daisuke72 said:

Look at the GC and N64 sales, if the Nintendo 1st party was that good, with cheaper price points and more powerful hardware, why did they fail? Because the lack of 3rd party support, re-hashed IP's, and nothing much outside their fanbase. Despite the GBA selling a shit-ton of handhelds.

Also you believing everything Iwata says is hilarious, if Nintendo truly was so perfect then they wouldn't be in the situation they are in now. With no 3rd party support the Wii U is going to get bullied this holiday by the PS360/PS4X1.

 

Also regarding budgets, Uncharted 2 was made with a 22M budget, GoW was made with 10M. Budgets by 1st party studios of MS/Sony are pretty damn good considering the sales. 3rd party budgets are the ones that're more staggering, which is why you mentioning budgets pretty funny since MS/Sony have done well managing their budgets. Oh, and guess what? The Wii U is rendering HD now, the budgets for them are higher than ever, oh and since porting is easy this time around thanks to the architecture and established game engines, budgets for games are actually on pace to be lower than last gen's. So that argument is also flawed, considering only SE is bleeding money thanks to budgeting issues at the moment.

Seriously I'm not even a Nintendo hater but the OP was so ludicrous I just had to bring the ridiculousness down a notch.

We're still talking about these N64 games to this day.
They have become legendary despite the system that played them not selling as many as the PlayStation did.
Pricey cartridges & politics is what kept the N64 from seeing the PS1.
Cartridges loaded faster & were more durable but on average didn't hold all of the multimedia information like movies & music without making a special cartridge to do it on—which also added cost.
Discs had those annoying loading times & were more fragile to store but held all of the multimedia information easily on disc right out of the box.
Sony was giving you $40 to $50 discs while Nintendo was giving you $60 to $70 cartridges.
Paying more for a game that gave you less.

Then there's the politics. The 3rd party made a united stand against Nintendo in the 5th gen using Sony as their political megaphone.
And now that volume was back in vogue Nintendo didn't have enough teams to constantly supply games for the system.
The N64 couldn't get that diversity in their library that the SNES & NES enjoyed.
This is what forced them to go inside of themselves & start pushing their hometown favorites more & more.
N64 had little to no RPGs, here comes Paper Mario. N64 had little to no priority sports games, here comes Mario Golf & Mario Tennis.
N64 had little to no fighting games, here comes Super Smash Bros.
N64 need more games to keep money in the coffers, here comes Mario Party.
Whatever Nintendo wasn't able to do, Rareware stepped in with Goldeneye 007, Blast Corps, Banjo-Kazooie, Jet Force Gemini & Perfect Dark.
Each & every one of these games Nintendo made were well received & their series are enjoyed to this day.
They sold greatly & profited Nintendo well too.

The Gamecube's failures were an extension of what happened with the N64 with new difficulties.
More politics, no Rare, & now image problems is what kept GC away from PS2.
Plus & most importantly an incomplete implementation of what they would perfect in the system following.
3rd party largely left Nintendo by themselves again even though a few like Capcom decided to throw Nintendo a couple of good bones (Resident Evil 1-4, Viewtiful Joe, Killer7, Okami).
They had to go internal again which is why we had 4 Mario Parties on that system & so many Mario Sports games (which were all great by the way).
But this time they had no Rare to back them up so they were stranded.
Then you had the media backlash about Gamecube being a "kiddie console" which scared away devs & customers.

The system was excellent. Cheap, powerful enough to deliver whatever game a dev can dream, hidden 3D-viewing capabilities, small, light, low on power consumption, tough & durable.
It was like Imperfect Cell from DBZ. Mighty but missing that one extra step that would make him complete.
Gamecube's controller despite its button size differentials was never going to be simple enough to get mass audience as complex as games had become.
Nice try but you need a whole new controller approach which simplifies all of this new complexity.
Small size was step in right direction but you need to get smaller than a squarish cube.
Never anything wrong with being a favorite of kids (in fact this is the MOST necessary audience of a console) but you need to reaffirm your motto as being for everybody. The roots go back to the FAMILY Computer & beyond.

They came up with a new system that used the Gamecube at its core. That system started The Revolution.
They had a whole new controller that could take all of gaming's complexity & make it simple.
They chopped that small Cube into thirds, took one of those thirds to make the smallest compact influential system around.
They UNDERLINED the FAMILY in Famicom & said Wii.
Now Cell was Perfect.

It was Gamecube's Revenge & you didn't insult it by calling it a Duct-Taped Gamecube because that so-called last-gen system trounced everything the HD Twins could put out.
Now with the trials suffered under The Fun Machine, the N64, & GC, going internal not only made them profitable but made them near-invincible.
Their games were cheaper unlike the N64 & they perfected what they were trying to achieve with GC.
They could always keep their systems afloat by themselves. Now they can ride on tidal waves.

That's not enough for them though. They have proven they can do it alone.
But they want to restore what was lost with the emergence of the PlayStation.
The audience divide is causing havok with the health of the game business.

Do they make mistakes? Doggone right they do!
That's why they had to correct game pricing from N64. That's why they had to take the Gamecube to its natural conclusion as Wii.
And now they're trying to correct their flaw in not breaking the 3rd party standoff fast enough through Wii U.
Though I think they made mistakes in how they first went about it.
I personally think it was a serious mistake ending the WiiConnect24 service. They could have run Wii & Wii U concurrently & crossed over.
It was a mistake not reading over the fine print in the Nintendo-Sony deal which led to Sony's PlayStation.
Oh & we all know about the rushed to market Virtual Boy.

Be lucky they make mistakes or nobody would ever be able to enter this business.

And last thing. About your game budget argument.
Remember that Sony's & Microsoft's platforms are propped up by the 3rd parties not the 1st parties.
Sony & ESPECIALLY Microsoft don't factor in since their games don't shoulder their systems.
So it is VERY IMPORTANT about this 3rd party game budget thing because if they fall apart where are Sony & certainly Microsoft gonna get the bulk of their games?
More details take more people or at least the same people doing more work. Moneyflush or Burnout either way.
I don't buy that line about 3rd party game budgets getting lower in the 8th gen.
I see both of them hitting a wall & Nintendo picking up the pieces.

It'll come together for you soon enough.
John Lucas



Words from the Official VGChartz Idiot

WE ARE THE NATION...OF DOMINATION!

 

JL means the obliteration of pithy Internet quips. Kills self.



Yes.

www.spacemag.org - contribute your stuff... satire, comics, ideas, debate, stupidy stupid etc.

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johnlucas said:

You know I was gonna leave the forum for the night but I just can't let this post from Daisuke72 stand unchallenged.
This is gonna be good. Good God this is gonna be good.

Daisuke72 said:

So basically what I got from this thread was that Nintendo apparently has a master plan and is the only one who has good 1st party support, which is total bullshit by the way. Sony has the most diverse lineup of 1st party exclusives available, you can argue quality here but Sony most definitely has a great 1st party, and Microsoft has Halo, a series which will sell systems regardless. 


Understand this fact, Daisuke72.

Nintendo Is THE BEST Developer In The Videogame Business.
Commercially, Critically, Influentially. THE BEST. Not Good. THE BEST.
That is a FACT.

And if you don't BELIEVE that fact let me take you to VGChartz's Game Database.
The Top 10 games are ALL Nintendo.

1. Wii Sports (Wii), 2. Super Mario Bros. (NES), 3. Mario Kart Wii (Wii), 4. Wii Sports Resort (Wii),
5. Pokémon Red & Green [Blue] (GB), 6. Tetris (GB), 7. New Super Mario Bros. (DS), 8. Wii Play (Wii),
9. Duck Hunt (NES), 10. New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii)

Even if you take out the perennial pack-ins like Wii Sports, Super Mario Bros., Tetris & Duck Hunt, the Top 10 STILL is ALL Nintendo.

1. Mario Kart Wii (Wii), 2. Wii Sports Resort (Wii), 3. Pokémon Red & Green [Blue] (GB), 4. New Super Mario Bros. (DS),
5. Wii Play (Wii), 6. New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii), 7. Nintendogs (DS), 8. Pokémon Silver & Gold (GBC),
9. Wii Fit (Wii), 10. Mario Kart DS (DS)

The only game to come close to challenging this juggernaut of titles is Rockstar's legendary Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for the PS2.
And that one comes in at only #16! Wii Fit Plus is ahead of it at #15! And after San Andreas is Super Mario World for SNES at #17!
A few non-Nintendo games start peeking through at this point like Microsoft's Kinect Adventures! for the 360 at #18, Rockstar's Grand Theft Auto: Vice City for the PS2 at #23, Activision/Infinity Ward's Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 - 360 version - at #26, & Sony/Polyphony Digital's Gran Turismo A-Spec for the PS2 at #27.
But throughout that Top 50 Nintendo games litter the charts. Same goes for the Top 100.
And I find it ironic that despite the 360's reputation as a FPS box, the system had its greatest selling game when it mimicked Wii through Kinect Adventures!

That's just the Commercial side of the equation though.

We also know about Nintendo's Critical Acclaim throughout the industry.
Who can forget Famitsu's 40 out of 40 Platinum score for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time? The first EVER to get a perfect score from that magazine?
How can we miss Brain Age's Edinburgh Interactive Entertainment Festival 2006 Edge Award or the 10th Annual Interactive Achievement Award for Handheld Game of the Year in 2007 from the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences?
What about Wii Fit & its winning of the Chrysler Design Innovation Award in 2008, Popular Mechanics' Breakthrough Award in 2007, Computer Entertainment Supplier's Association's Grand Award/Game of the Year & Award for Excellence at the 2008 Japan Game Awards?
What about Super Metroid's critical acclaim from Electronic Gaming Monthly who in 1994 named it Game of the Month that May, gave it an Editor's Choice Award then an award of Best Action Game of 1994 that same year, then called it Best Game of All Time in 2003? What about being placed on GamesRadar's & ScrewAttack's lists as THE #1 Best Super Nintendo game of All Time?
Did you forget about Super Smash Bros. Melee getting IGN's Readers' Choice Award for Best Game of the Year for 2001?

And if you want to talk about Nintendo's Influential power, we'll be here all day.
I'm not even gonna go into the hardware side of Nintendo which has CONSTANTLY & CONSISTENTLY shaped the way we play games for over 30 years.
The Donkey Kong Game & Watch handheld that led to the Control Pad (D-pad) & the overall shape of the Famicom/NES controller, a standard which we STILL use today; SNES' L & R buttons, diamond layout for the on-face action buttons, the action buttons' red-yellow-green-blue color-coding format; N64's analog stick & RUMBLE, GC's functional wireless by Wavebird, DS's touchscreen, Wii's motion control, to scratch the surface.

No I'm not gonna get into that. I'll just stick to the software side.

Donkey Kong & Super Mario Bros. How many platformers came out of this mold since these games came out? Do you think Mega Man would exist without them?
The Legend of Zelda. How many RPGs sprang up after this action-adventure title stirred it up on the Famicom Disk System & then the NES?
Super Mario Kart. Do you KNOW HOW many cartoony racers have been trying to touch the hem of this game's garment?
Star Fox. How much did this SNES game influence the development of polygonal 3D graphics? Aren't we still in the after effects this shift?
Super Mario 64. How many 3D platformers came out of THIS mold? How many contemporary side-scrollers tried to make the switch like Mario did? How many were successful at it?
Pokémon Red & Green [Blue]. What do you think led to all this Digimon, Bakugan stuff? Monster Rancher, Monster Hunter? What about its influence on the Tamagotchi craze? Do you think this game had a little bit to do with the Chao Adventure VMU game within Dreamcast's Sonic Adventure?
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Look at how much this game shaped action-adventure titles in 3D space.
Super Smash Bros. The game that changed the world of fighting games. I think its name is PlayStation All-Stars, I forget.
Mario Party. How many games have tried to match this multiplayer minigame madness since it first debuted?
Metroid Prime. How much did this game impact the look & feel of later first-person shooters?
WarioWare, Inc. The game that taught everybody that fun could be had in 5 seconds & could be done with simple graphics.
Nintendogs. All those pet sims...
Brain Age. Do you KNOW what this game set off?
New Super Mario Bros. The return to 2D in the midst of the Only-3D mentality.
Wii Sports. 'Nuff said.
Wii Play. 'Nuff said. (secret return of The Zapper & 'Light Gun' games)
Wii Fit. 'Nuff said. (Zumba, Jenny McCarthy, & the whole rebirth of exergaming)

This is not only my opinion that they are THE BEST. It is a documentable FACT that they are THE BEST.
And have been for over 30 years.

Sony might have the MOST 1st party studios in its portfolio but they don't have the BEST 1st party & the sales charts, critical acclaim, industrial influence reflect that.
DAIRANTOU!
PlayStation don't have the All-Star. Nintendo has the All-Star.
They're the Bros. that make the Smash Hits.

Daisuke72 said:

Also, arguing about graphics not mattering anymore and PS4 and Xbone being overpowered is nonsense. PC's have been doing this for almost three years, the consoles will match a high end PC from years ago, you honestly expect the Wii U to be powerful enough up to the years, say 2017 with only 2GB of RAM?

My phone has the same amount of RAM as the Wii U, my phone has a GPU almost on par with current gen's, which Wii U's gpu is on par with. Part of the reason why the Wii U is failing because Nintendo thought the tablet gimmick would induce Wii like sales, it didn't. They got away with the Wii because most of the people who bought the Wii were non-gamers who didn't care for games in general and were more into the motion control gimmick. Nintendo tried to reuse this method but it won't work simply because the Wii U tablet isn't that special, and the Xbone has smartglass and the PS4 has PS Vita and PS mobile.


RAM? Seriously? You're talking about RAM?
Um, when you go to a retail store like say Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, & such, where are the console games located? Where are the PC games located?
What's a good ratio you can give for how many console games on shelves there are to PC games on shelves?
Console games usually have security measures on them, don't they? Hidden behind a door of plexiglass that has to be unlocked or a title card being placed on a shelf to be turned in at register for game behind the desk, right?
PC games are usually left wide open without all of that runaround, aren't they?
Console games out number PC games at about 10 to 1, 20 to 1, or 50 to 1, most times don't they?
I know for sure Gamestop is wall-to-wall with console games while the PC games are on one little section or a little stand in the middle of the store.

Nintendo was responsible for creating that reality all the way back in the 1980s.
Their World of Nintendo displays in stores raised the value of console games in the minds of the general public.
The craze for their products led to inevitable theft & over the years retailers have put up security measures to secure their sales.
Nintendo's competition helped Nintendo elevate console games over PC games further because all of them are striving for a piece of Nintendo's pie trying to stand as the King of Consoles (which they aren't. Nintendo is).

All this tech tech tech talk comes from the world of PC developers.
They have been shaken by Nintendo's emergence in this industry & still haven't come to grips with it YET!
They want to shape consoles in PC's image as revenge for losing their market to the consoles.
Nintendo uses tech but you never hear them get so caught up in the details of the components of the machine.
They're always talking about the experience they hope their games will convey THROUGH that machine.
The Big Picture.

PC guys love to pore over all the technical hardware & software intricacies.
All that boring engineer talk that goes right over most people's heads.
That stuff needs to be known in the production of the machines but they put covers over the guts for a reason.
You're not selling to engineers. You're selling to regular people. People who are NOT knowledgeable about all this stuff & didn't spend years training in it.
It's interesting to know the details behind what makes the magic on a console but that's the key word: MAGIC.

MAGIC & SCIENCE are basically the same word: Knowledge.
What's really the difference between a sage & a mage?
Jesus & the gifts of the Magis, The Three Wise Men.
Wise, Wize, Wiz, Wizard, Wise-ard. Wizdom, Wisdom.
Wisdom. To be Conscient of what's right & what's wrong.
Con-Scient. Con-Science. With-Science. Wit Science. In CONjunction WITH Science. CONjoined to Science.
Conscientious. Conscientiousness. Con-Sense. With Sense. Wit Sense. Wizense. Wisen.

The Magician KNOWS. The Scientist KNOWS.
The only difference between the 2 is that the magician doesn't tell you all the steps wanting you to be surprised at the end.
The scientist takes all the surprise out breaking down each & every step from the beginning.
We need both of them but when presenting a surprise you don't blab all the secrets.
You remember how Iwata loves saying Nintendo is about giving you meaningful surprises.
In this videogaming enterprise, you ruin the prize when you dig too much around the package (just like Christmas presents).
This all lines up with Nintendo's roots as a playing card company. Card tricks are a magician's go-to routine after all.

Wii had less RAM than both the XBox 360 & PlayStation 3. It did not hurt it in the least.
Have you forgotten the quote I have been posting all throughout this thread?
Satoru Iwata, E3 2004: "The time when horsepower alone made an important difference is over."

Sony & Microsoft are about to hit a wall chasing this rabbit called 100% photorealism. Graphics are finished & the horsepower pushed to deliver them is unnecessary overkill.
You using your phone to make your point underlines how silly it is to worry about some RAM when so many people are playing games on their phones now.
Don't look now but the blocky N64-looking Minecraft XBox 360 Edition has already sold 8 million in a combination of physical & digital sales.
Wii U specs are more than fine. They will allow devs to deliver those kinds of real-like games at cheaper budgets.

Daisuke72 said:

Also let's not forget the marketing for the Wii U is downright terrible, it's almost as bad the Vita's. You guys keep bringing up the Vita and comparing it to the PS4 which is funny considering that none of my real life friend didn't know the Vita even existed until they found my PSP and I brought it up, and yet we all pre-ordered a PS4. Marketing goes a long way, if the Vita was called PSP 2 and the Wii U was called Wii 2 or something to that effect, sales for both would be better than they are currently.

Problem is, I don't know a single person in real life who owns a Wii U, nor do I know someone who's still playing their Wii. Judging by the OP, it's almost like you forgot that Nintendo's 1st party didn't sell 100M Wii's.

The motion control gimmick did.


Oh we can agree about Wii U's marketing but we cannot agree on Nintendo calling it Wii 2 or Nintendo's 1st party not selling 100 million Wiis (don't look on VGChartz.com's homepage. Wii's at 99.9 million worldwide at the time of this writing) or that motion control is a mere gimmick.

Nintendo can do better job with marketing for sure & we see The Regginator going on late night TV himself to do just that.
But what you don't understand is that Wii U will get most of its sales from word-of-mouth which is built right in to the system. Organically.
It's just a matter of that first spark. And that spark may come from the 3DS also a word-of-mouth type of system.
You will see the breakthrough soon, Daisuke72, & your mind will be blown by how much Nintendo "turned this around".
And yes people still play their Wiis. Why wouldn't they? They bought it, they enjoy it, & it's fun. I'm one of them.

And if Nintendo's 1st party didn't sell 100 million Wiis then who did? Remember, they had virtually no 3rd party with them this gen, remember?
Ubisoft hung in there with them along with a handful of others but Nintendo damn near sold this system all by themselves. Who made Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Super Mario Galaxy 1 & 2?

If motion control's a gimmick then everything's a gimmick including HD.
Motion control by Wiimote changed the entire industry. There would be no Kinect, no Move, & no attempt from Microsoft & Sony to make their systems more friendly to the audience Wii cultivated.
Remember XBox 360 changed their entire menu interface to follow in Wii's footsteps. From the Dashboard's Blades to this New XBox Experience with the Avatars.
PlayStation 3 promoted Sackboy from LittleBigPlanet in mascot form.
Wii never went HD with all the first-person shooters.

Motion is the new standard. That's why XBox One promotes the new Kinect first & foremost & PS4 still packs in Move as well as this EyeToy/PlayStation Eye/Kinect-ish thing called the PlayStation Camera.
Looks like HD was the real gimmick since they're still pushing that 'more power, more graphics' hardware argument despite that argument being thoroughly defeated last go around by a weaker SD system called Wii.

Daisuke72 said:

Look at the GC and N64 sales, if the Nintendo 1st party was that good, with cheaper price points and more powerful hardware, why did they fail? Because the lack of 3rd party support, re-hashed IP's, and nothing much outside their fanbase. Despite the GBA selling a shit-ton of handhelds.

Also you believing everything Iwata says is hilarious, if Nintendo truly was so perfect then they wouldn't be in the situation they are in now. With no 3rd party support the Wii U is going to get bullied this holiday by the PS360/PS4X1.

 

Also regarding budgets, Uncharted 2 was made with a 22M budget, GoW was made with 10M. Budgets by 1st party studios of MS/Sony are pretty damn good considering the sales. 3rd party budgets are the ones that're more staggering, which is why you mentioning budgets pretty funny since MS/Sony have done well managing their budgets. Oh, and guess what? The Wii U is rendering HD now, the budgets for them are higher than ever, oh and since porting is easy this time around thanks to the architecture and established game engines, budgets for games are actually on pace to be lower than last gen's. So that argument is also flawed, considering only SE is bleeding money thanks to budgeting issues at the moment.

Seriously I'm not even a Nintendo hater but the OP was so ludicrous I just had to bring the ridiculousness down a notch.

We're still talking about these N64 games to this day.
They have become legendary despite the system that played them not selling as many as the PlayStation did.
Pricey cartridges & politics is what kept the N64 from seeing the PS1.
Cartridges loaded faster & were more durable but on average didn't hold all of the multimedia information like movies & music without making a special cartridge to do it on—which also added cost.
Discs had those annoying loading times & were more fragile to store but held all of the multimedia information easily on disc right out of the box.
Sony was giving you $40 to $50 discs while Nintendo was giving you $60 to $70 cartridges.
Paying more for a game that gave you less.

Then there's the politics. The 3rd party made a united stand against Nintendo in the 5th gen using Sony as their political megaphone.
And now that volume was back in vogue Nintendo didn't have enough teams to constantly supply games for the system.
The N64 couldn't get that diversity in their library that the SNES & NES enjoyed.
This is what forced them to go inside of themselves & start pushing their hometown favorites more & more.
N64 had little to no RPGs, here comes Paper Mario. N64 had little to no priority sports games, here comes Mario Golf & Mario Tennis.
N64 had little to no fighting games, here comes Super Smash Bros.
N64 need more games to keep money in the coffers, here comes Mario Party.
Whatever Nintendo wasn't able to do, Rareware stepped in with Goldeneye 007, Blast Corps, Banjo-Kazooie, Jet Force Gemini & Perfect Dark.
Each & every one of these games Nintendo made were well received & their series are enjoyed to this day.
They sold greatly & profited Nintendo well too.

The Gamecube's failures were an extension of what happened with the N64 with new difficulties.
More politics, no Rare, & now image problems is what kept GC away from PS2.
Plus & most importantly an incomplete implementation of what they would perfect in the system following.
3rd party largely left Nintendo by themselves again even though a few like Capcom decided to throw Nintendo a couple of good bones (Resident Evil 1-4, Viewtiful Joe, Killer7, Okami).
They had to go internal again which is why we had 4 Mario Parties on that system & so many Mario Sports games (which were all great by the way).
But this time they had no Rare to back them up so they were stranded.
Then you had the media backlash about Gamecube being a "kiddie console" which scared away devs & customers.

The system was excellent. Cheap, powerful enough to deliver whatever game a dev can dream, hidden 3D-viewing capabilities, small, light, low on power consumption, tough & durable.
It was like Imperfect Cell from DBZ. Mighty but missing that one extra step that would make him complete.
Gamecube's controller despite its button size differentials was never going to be simple enough to get mass audience as complex as games had become.
Nice try but you need a whole new controller approach which simplifies all of this new complexity.
Small size was step in right direction but you need to get smaller than a squarish cube.
Never anything wrong with being a favorite of kids (in fact this is the MOST necessary audience of a console) but you need to reaffirm your motto as being for everybody. The roots go back to the FAMILY Computer & beyond.

They came up with a new system that used the Gamecube at its core. That system started The Revolution.
They had a whole new controller that could take all of gaming's complexity & make it simple.
They chopped that small Cube into thirds, took one of those thirds to make the smallest compact influential system around.
They UNDERLINED the FAMILY in Famicom & said Wii.
Now Cell was Perfect.

It was Gamecube's Revenge & you didn't insult it by calling it a Duct-Taped Gamecube because that so-called last-gen system trounced everything the HD Twins could put out.
Now with the trials suffered under The Fun Machine, the N64, & GC, going internal not only made them profitable but made them near-invincible.
Their games were cheaper unlike the N64 & they perfected what they were trying to achieve with GC.
They could always keep their systems afloat by themselves. Now they can ride on tidal waves.

That's not enough for them though. They have proven they can do it alone.
But they want to restore what was lost with the emergence of the PlayStation.
The audience divide is causing havok with the health of the game business.

Do they make mistakes? Doggone right they do!
That's why they had to correct game pricing from N64. That's why they had to take the Gamecube to its natural conclusion as Wii.
And now they're trying to correct their flaw in not breaking the 3rd party standoff fast enough through Wii.
Though I think they made mistakes in how they first went about it.
I personally think it was a serious mistake ending the WiiConnect24 service. They could have run Wii & Wii U concurrently & crossed over.
It was a mistake not reading over the fine print in the Nintendo-Sony deal which led to Sony's PlayStation.
Oh & we all know about the rushed to market Virtual Boy.

Be lucky they make mistakes or nobody would ever be able to enter this business.

And last thing. About your game budget argument.
Remember that Sony's & Microsoft's platforms are propped up by the 3rd parties not the 1st parties.
Sony & ESPECIALLY Microsoft don't factor in since their games don't shoulder their systems.
So it is VERY IMPORTANT about this 3rd party game budget thing because if they fall apart where are Sony & certainly Microsoft gonna get the bulk of their games?
More details take more people or at least the same people doing more work. Moneyflush or Burnout either way.
I don't buy that line about 3rd game budgets getting lower in the 8th gen.
I see both of them hitting a wall & Nintendo picking up the pieces.

It'll come together for you soon enough.
John Lucas

LOL "the best' is subjective, not factual, unless you determine that sales = being the best, then CoD consistently shits on every game, so by that logic Activision is the best? They're the ONLY developer able to sell 20M copies of a game every year, using your logic, they're the best, right? 

 

So since that argument has been debunked, let's go towards quality of 1st party titles shall we? As of now, 14 1st party PS3 games have a 90 or better on Metacritic, versus only 7 1st party nintendo games on the Wii. I don't know why you're bringing in Nintendo's past accomplishment's from the N64 era considering that it's irrelevant to their current standard of quality, your argument that they're better recieved than Sony's is flawed.

 

The best game developer is Naughty Dog. Sure there games don't sell 10M, but their quality is top-notch and ALL of their games recieve universal acclaim, now who the hell are you to tell me I'm wrong cause you enjoy Mario rehashes more? 

 

Critical acclaim, Gears of War, Halo, Gran Turismo, TLOU, Uncharted, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, GTA San Andreas and many other games from other consoles generated just as much acclaim as ANY nintendo game. I am not taking anything away from Nintendo, I grew up with a N64 butjust because their games paved the way for other's, simply doesn't mean they're the best in their own genre. However I do agree that Mario 64 and OOT are two of the best games ever created. 

 

Also your argument towards the Wii U's power is simply ignorant Launch games shown on PS4 simply blow the Wii U out of the water and it's using DECENT specs. How can you knock a company for giving consumers a decent amount of power for their purchase? And then praise Nintendo for not doing the same at $350 they're offering current gen power with a tablet gimmick. Also, the whole, "Nintendo did this and did that" is completely off-topic and irrelevant, as that's the past and as of now they're in huge trouble. 

 

And yes, the motion control sold  most of the Wii's and it's a pure gimmick. IF they were so god sent then the attachment rate of the Kinect and PS move would be higher, and the Wii or the Wii U would still be saling decently, they aren't. The Wii didn't win current gen with games, as I proved earlier, they won with the gimmick, plain and simple and since the Wii U no longer has said gimmick, realistically they're chances to win current gen is low at this point. 

 

HD is not a gimmick lol do you even know what a gimmick is? 

Oh, and also, thank you for proving my point, the Wii U faces the same challenges that the GC, and N64 had, it's not about gamers magically feeling enlightened and switching over, it was the Wii's motion gimmick, game-wise the Wii's library isn't as good as the N64's nor Gamecube's, it just isn't and yet both of them got pounced, seeing as the motion gimmick is dead, how will the Wii U win? 

 

Also, once again you're under the impression every third party developer is doing bad simply because SE is and the Wii U's 3rd party games are flopping and not getting sequels, this simply isn't true. Bethesda, Activision, EA, and Bioware are making killings. It's pathetic to see how many Nintendo fans want to see the game industry crash, simply because their beloved Nintendo isn't doing good. Also, the 3rd party giants wont collapse this gen, hah, do you know how much EA makes off Sport games? Activision off CoD alone? Bethesda of Elder Scrolls? Rockstar off GTA? Ubisoft on AC?

 

Also the Xbox and the Playstation brands also have compelling 1st party software, OTHERWISE the PS3 would've never caught up to the Xbox 360, they share the same library excluding third party, the 360 is cheaper and has better online, yet the PS3 sold 78M consoles with no boost from it's motion gimmick. You're under the false impression that EVERYONE likes Nintendo's 1st party, which simply isn't true. Alot of people see Mario games as childish and whatnot

 

Anyways tl;dr of the version is. Yes Nintendo has done alot for gaming, but they have failed multiple times and you have no concrete proof that the Wii U won't fail. The 1st party of Sony had more critical acclaim this gen despite lower sales, sales don't determine quality(look at metroid's metacritic and then it's sales, lol.) you're underplaying Sony's and MS's 1st party line-ups, 3rd party devs will be fine. Motion controls sold the Wii, not it's 1st party. 

 

As someone in here pointed out, stop drinking the Nintendo Kool-aid.



This may be the best thread in history. Or at least of the last week or two. And reading it I feel... evangelized. All I want to do is play my Wii U and buy Pikmin 3...



Daisuke72 said:

...Stuff...

As someone in here pointed out, stop drinking the Nintendo Kool-aid.


Couldn't have said it better myself, except I probably would have ended on a happier note ;)



John Lucas I suggest you stop wasting your time with Daisuke72, he clearly doesn't care to use common sense. You can't take someone serious that believes since CoD sells the most a year no one else can possibly sell more games lol. I guess he didn't know CoD doesn't sell anywhere near enough to beat all of the games Ninty releases a year lol. When you are a Ninty hater though that kind of logic just doesn't make sense. Even with CoDs incredible sells, Ninty still sells more games annually. I guess because that's pretty much all Activision has is CoD. Then he goes on about Metacritic and says in the same sentence "now who the hell are you to tell me I'm wrong cause you enjoy Mario rehashes more?" Apparently, you can't tell him if a game is good or bad but Metacritic can lol. I guess he didn't know Metacritic is just the opinions of others as well but hey when you are a Ninty hater, Metacritic is your Bible lol. He goes on about how other games generate critical acclaim has if you said only Ninty games generate critical acclaim. He's basically just twisting your words to make an argument, which is what a hater would do lol. He then talks about PS4 "launch games" lol. I didn't know the PS4 even released but again when you are a hater you tend to see things that aren't there. The tablet gimmick comment proves even further what his intentions are. He goes on to repeat they same hater stuff every other hater says. Wii should be still selling well if motion controls aren't a gimmick? Maybe it has slowed because it doesn't receive games period anymore? If motion controls was a gimmick then Just Dance 2014 shouldn't sell more than the "critically acclaimed" Last of Us. Yet it will and will prove if anything Metacritic loves Sony games but the world doesn't lol. Just Dance will sell more on a dead console than Last of Us on PS3 lol. Im not going to address the rest of it. Just don't waste your time, he's clearly a waste of time.

 

User was banned for this post.

yo_john117



Daisuke

The best game developer is Naughty Dog. Sure there games don't sell 10M, but their quality is top-notch and ALL of their games recieve universal acclaim, now who the hell are you to tell me I'm wrong cause you enjoy Mario rehashes more? 

sure its the best developer if you like interactive movies more then games, the last good game they made was Crash Bandicoot.