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caffeinade on 19 January 2018
JEMC said:
caffeinade said:

You just get regular assets out of the process.

You can have the assets at any lower res if you want.
The assets can be compressed like any other asset.

Ok, ok. It's just that games sizes are getting a bit out of control and, while better textures are always welcome, I don't want games sizes to skyrocket due to them.

Btw, your last sentence made me chuckle.

Pemalite said:

Really depends on the game for me.

I can happily smash Super Metroid in a couple of hours and enjoy the art style all through the game.
But give me something like Fez? It's a no from me.

I can happily play a retro-inspired game like Minecraft... But shoot me if it's something like Prison Architect.

Some games the retro-styled graphics fits in well, others it's just a tacky, lazy approach and it adds and does absolutely nothing to the game itself.

That's what I'm saying! There are some games that, with the excuse of being retro, use bad, pixelated graphics with no or almost no textures that just look awful.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the heavy use of LoD is partially to blame for large file sizes.
I will happily place blame on the use of static / pre-rendered effects for large file sizes too.
In short: I blame consoles and weak PCs.

Ah, but I expect it to be a problem solved by Valve, both with Steam and Source 2.
Better data management and an engine that is hopefully built, to scale elegantly.



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JEMC on 19 January 2018
vivster said:
JEMC said:

Ok, ok. It's just that games sizes are getting a bit out of control and, while better textures are always welcome, I don't want games sizes to skyrocket due to them.

Game sizes aren't exploding. They're naturally expanding. If it wasn't for that terrible Bluray we'd have 100-200GB as standard now. The game sizes aren't the problem, people expecting better games but are not willing to upgrade storage and internet are.

The problem of games of that size is that the end product doesn't show what is that space used for. Texture aren't that better to demand two, three or more times the storage capacity they asked for five years ago.

Developers are simply getting lazy and, with the excuse of consoles having HDDs and PC users having large capacity HDDs, they are forgetting about compression and optimization.

caffeinade said:
JEMC said:

Ok, ok. It's just that games sizes are getting a bit out of control and, while better textures are always welcome, I don't want games sizes to skyrocket due to them.

Btw, your last sentence made me chuckle.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the heavy use of LoD is partially to blame for large file sizes.
I will happily place blame on the use of static / pre-rendered effects for large file sizes too.
In short: I blame consoles and weak PCs.

Ah, but I expect it to be a problem solved by Valve, both with Steam and Source 2.
Better data management and an engine that is hopefully built, to scale elegantly.

I don't know how Source 2 will be of any help, given that only Valve will end using it... and they no longer make many games.



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

caffeinade on 19 January 2018
JEMC said:
vivster said:

Game sizes aren't exploding. They're naturally expanding. If it wasn't for that terrible Bluray we'd have 100-200GB as standard now. The game sizes aren't the problem, people expecting better games but are not willing to upgrade storage and internet are.

The problem of games of that size is that the end product doesn't show what is that space used for. Texture aren't that better to demand two, three or more times the storage capacity they asked for five years ago.

Developers are simply getting lazy and, with the excuse of consoles having HDDs and PC users having large capacity HDDs, they are forgetting about compression and optimization.

caffeinade said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that the heavy use of LoD is partially to blame for large file sizes.
I will happily place blame on the use of static / pre-rendered effects for large file sizes too.
In short: I blame consoles and weak PCs.

Ah, but I expect it to be a problem solved by Valve, both with Steam and Source 2.
Better data management and an engine that is hopefully built, to scale elegantly.

I don't know how Source 2 will be of any help, given that only Valve will end using it... and they no longer make many games.

"they are forgetting about compression and optimization."
Come on.
Do you really think developers just, don't compress and / or don't "optimise".
There is only so much you can do when you have 100+ artists working with complex art pipelines.

Valve still makes games, they just haven't released a game since 2013, if you ignore 2016's: The Lab.
Rockstar Games hasn't released a game since 2013 too, they still make games.
Hell, Rockstar probably has more employees than Valve.
Valve is an indie studio, we cannot expect them to throw out a game each year.

Valve has expressed their intent to make Source 2 available to developers for free.
Valve has also stated that they have games in development using the engine.



JEMC on 19 January 2018
caffeinade said:
JEMC said:

The problem of games of that size is that the end product doesn't show what is that space used for. Texture aren't that better to demand two, three or more times the storage capacity they asked for five years ago.

Developers are simply getting lazy and, with the excuse of consoles having HDDs and PC users having large capacity HDDs, they are forgetting about compression and optimization.

 

"they are forgetting about compression and optimization."
Come on.
Do you really think developers just, don't compress and / or don't "optimise".
There is only so much you can do when you have 100+ artists working with complex art pipelines.

Yes, I actually do. 

caffeinade said:
JEMC said:

I don't know how Source 2 will be of any help, given that only Valve will end using it... and they no longer make many games.


Valve still makes games, they just haven't released a game since 2013, if you ignore 2016's: The Lab.
Rockstar Games hasn't released a game since 2013 too, they still make games.
Hell, Rockstar probably has more employees than Valve.
Valve is an indie studio, we cannot expect them to throw out a game each year.

Valve has expressed their intent to make Source 2 available to developers for free.
Valve has also stated that they have games in development using the engine.

I really don't know how big, in terms of manpower and investment, was DOTA 2. I know it's a sequel to a Warcraft 3 mod and that Valve hired the man behind the mod (or the one in charge at the time) to make the "sequel" but, as I said, I don't know how much of Valve' staff was actually involved in making it.

In any case, that's one game. Before that came CS:GO which again I don't know much was Valve involved as it wa developed by Hidden Path, and before that was Portal 2, made by the same team that made the first game and that were bought or hired by Valve.

And it's almost the same situation with Team Fortress and Left 4 Dead so, again, what has Valve, the main Valve that made Half Life, made during the last 10 years?

Lastly, Source 2 may be free, but so are Unreal Engine and CryEngine. Why would someone choose Source over other engines widely used and, and this is my guess, with better support from Epic and Crytek?



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

vivster on 19 January 2018
JEMC said:
vivster said:

Game sizes aren't exploding. They're naturally expanding. If it wasn't for that terrible Bluray we'd have 100-200GB as standard now. The game sizes aren't the problem, people expecting better games but are not willing to upgrade storage and internet are.

The problem of games of that size is that the end product doesn't show what is that space used for. Texture aren't that better to demand two, three or more times the storage capacity they asked for five years ago.

Developers are simply getting lazy and, with the excuse of consoles having HDDs and PC users having large capacity HDDs, they are forgetting about compression and optimization.

You could argue the same with resolution, which in the end everything comes down to.

4k images do not look 4 times better than 1080p images, yet they consume 4 times the space uncompressed. That's the kind of scaling we're talking about here. Games also are getting bigger and more complex. So if a game just uses double the amount of art assets because it just has more objects within the game then the size will blow up as well despite not looking any better.

I'd argue that not today's game sizes are too big but past game sizes have been too small because they were using cheap tricks and low quality assets if at all.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

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caffeinade on 19 January 2018
JEMC said:
caffeinade said:

"they are forgetting about compression and optimization."
Come on.
Do you really think developers just, don't compress and / or don't "optimise".
There is only so much you can do when you have 100+ artists working with complex art pipelines.

Yes, I actually do. 

caffeinade said:


Valve still makes games, they just haven't released a game since 2013, if you ignore 2016's: The Lab.
Rockstar Games hasn't released a game since 2013 too, they still make games.
Hell, Rockstar probably has more employees than Valve.
Valve is an indie studio, we cannot expect them to throw out a game each year.

Valve has expressed their intent to make Source 2 available to developers for free.
Valve has also stated that they have games in development using the engine.

I really don't know how big, in terms of manpower and investment, was DOTA 2. I know it's a sequel to a Warcraft 3 mod and that Valve hired the man behind the mod (or the one in charge at the time) to make the "sequel" but, as I said, I don't know how much of Valve' staff was actually involved in making it.

In any case, that's one game. Before that came CS:GO which again I don't know much was Valve involved as it wa developed by Hidden Path, and before that was Portal 2, made by the same team that made the first game and that were bought or hired by Valve.

And it's almost the same situation with Team Fortress and Left 4 Dead so, again, what has Valve, the main Valve that made Half Life, made during the last 10 years?

Lastly, Source 2 may be free, but so are Unreal Engine and CryEngine. Why would someone choose Source over other engines widely used and, and this is my guess, with better support from Epic and Crytek?

p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; }"Yes, I actually do."
It is okay to be wrong, I guess.


Portal 2 was made by some members of the Portal team.
Portal was made by about ten people max, with about 2.5 years of development time.
Some members of that ~ten person team were already Valve employees, such as Half-Life composer: Kelly Bailey (no longer works at Valve).
The Portal team members who were hired into Valve for Portal, came from the student project: Narbacular Drop.

Portal 2 took much longer and had a much larger team (3 times larger or more, about thirty-ish people).
The development of Portal 2 is pretty interesting.

As I understand it:
After the completion of The Orange Box (Half-Life 2: Episode 2, Portal and the the nine year dev cycle for TF2), Valve went into experimentation mode.
Valve's employees formed many small teams, where heaps of small gameplay experiments were conducted.
One of the experiments that showed promise was eventually called F-Stop.
F-Stop was supposed to be the core mechanic behind Portal 2, replacing Portals.

A Portal game, with no portals rubbed the play-testers the wrong way, so after about six or so months into development Portal 2 was rebooted.
Basically a whole game, and then some was cut from Portal 2 (I don't want to spend all night typing out this post, so I am stopping here).
Valve has stated that they may revisit the F-Stop mechanic in the future.


Stars of Blood was a Space Pirate game - cancelled.


Well with Crytek, there is always the chance that they may try to sue you later down the line.
So there is that.
Unreal Engine demands that the developers / publishers pay royalties, not So with Source 2 (from what we understand).

Source 2 is being developed alongside Valve’s VR projects and their 2D titles.
VR support from Source 2 will very likely be industry leading.
Source 2 will be battle hardened by, potentially, some of the best games produced by man.
Source 2 can be tightly integrated into Steam as both are produced by Valve.
Source 2 will have a dedicated group of people who are really knowledgeable about Source 2, due to coming from the Source / Source 2 modding scene.


Half-Life 2 took about five years to produce, with the team growing to about eighty or so team members.
Gabe didn’t work on the title for the most part.
Half-Life 2 was originally going to be darker, the concepts and assets we have from that period are quite interesting / cool.
There is too much to go into detail here; look-up the 2003 Valve hack.


I really have no idea how much effort went into Dota 2.
I do not play Dota 2, and I do not follow the game in any capacity.
People seem to like the game; it is good: apparently.

CS:GO is now in-house from my understanding.
The game has about thirty or so Valve employees working on it, last we heard (early 2017).
There is talk of a survival mode (PUBG, maybe) being in development for the game (maybe a spinoff / or new IP in the same world, Half-Life and Portal share a universe).

Left 4 Dead (1) was developed by Turtle Rock Studios , who were bought by Valve.
Valve moved the employees they deemed to be important into Valve proper and eventually let Turtle Rock Studios go.
Valve kept the Left 4 Dead IP, and produced Left 4 Dead 2 in-house, the game released one year after the first game causing backlash.
Left 4 Dead 2 is now seen as the better game, and no-one has an issue with it.

I still have no idea how Valve of all developers managed to make such a well received game in under a year.
The same developer who spent nine years developing TF2.


Valve is not a main HL team, and smaller satellite teams.
Valve is a single mass of individuals.
If Valve wants to spend a decade or two developing HL3, go for it.
As long as the game is perfect, I cannot complain.

Half-Life 2 is a design masterpiece; I am willing to wait a while for something that raises the bar, once again.



I would spend the time to properly source the stuff, but it is 1am and I cannot be bothered digging through interviews, GDC talks, ect.
Take everything at about a 90% accuracy rating.



JEMC on 19 January 2018
vivster said:
JEMC said:

The problem of games of that size is that the end product doesn't show what is that space used for. Texture aren't that better to demand two, three or more times the storage capacity they asked for five years ago.

Developers are simply getting lazy and, with the excuse of consoles having HDDs and PC users having large capacity HDDs, they are forgetting about compression and optimization.

You could argue the same with resolution, which in the end everything comes down to.

4k images do not look 4 times better than 1080p images, yet they consume 4 times the space uncompressed. That's the kind of scaling we're talking about here. Games also are getting bigger and more complex. So if a game just uses double the amount of art assets because it just has more objects within the game then the size will blow up as well despite not looking any better.

I'd argue that not today's game sizes are too big but past game sizes have been too small because they were using cheap tricks and low quality assets if at all.

Well then, maybe someone should start working on better compression techniques, and use them.

caffeinade said:
JEMC said:

Yes, I actually do. 


It is okay to be wrong, I guess.

caffeinade said:
JEMC said:
*rest of my post*


*interesting, but too long to quote, post*

Do you realize that you've agreed with me that Valve has been hiring part or most of the staff that has been doing their last games?

Sure, they may not be too big (around 325 early last year if this info is correct), but there are smaller studios with a lot less resources that manage to launch more games than them. And let's not pretend that creating game prototypes or cancelling games mid-production is something exclusive from them. Most big companies do, but still manage to launch more games than them.

Valve is either too small to mantain Steam while developing games, or they should hire someone that actually manages what the staff is doing. Making prototypes and creating ideas for new games is good, if nothing comes out of it it's useless.

And about the Source 2 engine...

Crytek is suing CIG because they think they have breached their contract. Time will tell who is right and wrong, but using only one case to bash a whole engine/company is a mistake, and you're smart enough to know that.

Epic demands a fee when the game launches, taking part of the income or the profits, I'm not sure. As you saym we don't know yet if Valve will do the same with their engine, so we can't compare.

Also, you keep talking about Source 2 in future terms "will be", "can be", "will have", meaning that it can't do that yet, making it inferior to the other engines, and God knows how it will compare with the latest versions of those engines when it becomes available to other studios.

And since when "not being tightly integrated with Steam" is a problem? That allows them to sell their games in other stores like UPlay or GoG. That can actually be a problem for some studios, rather than something good. And I don't recall of any modern engine having problems with mods, besides some studios or publishers not allowing them.

Lastly, the biggest problems with Half Life are, in my opinion, that they promised at least a third episode for HL 2, which they never made, and that it's been already more than 10 years since the launch of Ep.2, and the longer they wait to launch the f*cking game, the harder it will be to live up the expectation.

Good night!



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

JEMC on 19 January 2018

Friday news!

 

SALES & "SALES"/DEALS

Get 60 percent off comedy physics puzzler Human Fall Flat
http://www.pcgamer.com/get-60-percent-off-comedy-physics-puzzler-human-fall-flat/
Before I address the potentially confusing strapline above, let me tell you that digital storefront Fanatical is selling comedy physics puzzle game Human Fall Flat for £4.79/your regional equivalent. For a game that's genuinely laugh-out-loud funny, I think that's a good deal. It's even funnier in multiplayer mode, which is why Fanatical has discounted the game's two packs and four packs in earnest.

>>If you buy the single edition it's 60% off, it's 63% off if you buy the pack of 2, and it reaches 73% off for pack of 4.

 

Also at Fanatical, there's the Very Positive Sale, with games rated "very positive" at Steam.

 

And while we're at it, remember that there's also the Humble Store's Winter Sale, and the Humble "Hope for Orphans" Bundle.

 

SOFTWARE

AMD Radeon Software Adrenalin Edition 18.1.1 driver now available, fixes various bugs and issues
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/amd-radeon-software-adrenalin-edition-18-1-1-now-available-fixes-various-bugs-and-issues/
AMD has just released the first 2018 driver for its graphics cards. According to the release notes, the AMD Radeon Software Adrenalin Edition 18.1.1 driver fixes various bugs and issues, including the crashing issues in a number of DX9 games.

>>You can download them from here.

 

MODS/EMULATORS

Half-Life: Blue Shift has been ported to the Source Engine, beta version now available for download
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/half-life-blue-shift-has-been-ported-to-the-source-engine-beta-version-now-available-for-download/
Nikolay Aulov has been working on a standalone total conversion modification that brings the classic Half-Life: Blue Shift game to the Source Engine. And while there is no ETA on when this mod will get finished, the modder has just released a beta version of it.

 

This mod restores the majority of cut content from The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/this-mod-restores-the-majority-of-cut-content-from-the-elder-scrolls-iii-morrowind/
Modder ‘Ferretmyster’ has released the first version of his restoration content mod for The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, Morrowind Uncut. As its title suggests, this modification restores majority of the content that was cut by Bethesda from the GOTY Edition of Morrowind.

>>Learn more and download it from Nexus Mods.

 

GAMING NEWS

Age of Empires: Definitive Edition releases on February 20th
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/age-of-empires-definitive-edition-releases-on-february-20th/
Microsoft has just announced that Age of Empires: Definitive Edition will release on February 20th. Age of Empires Definitive Edition will feature full remastered visuals with 4K support, new zoom levels, new and improved gameplay, as well as a fully remastered soundtrack.

>>I hope they haven't ruined it with the "improved gameplay".

 

Memories of Mars is a new open world online survival sandbox game from the team behind Tropico 6
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/memories-of-mars-is-a-new-open-world-online-survival-sandbox-game-from-the-team-behind-tropico-6/
505 Games has announced a new open world online survival sandbox game, Memories of Mars. This game is being developed by Limbic Entertainment, the team behind numerous Might & Magic games and Tropico 6, and will be powered by the Unreal Engine 4.

 

Star Wars: Empire at War developers want to make a triple-A sequel, Electronic Arts remains silent
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/star-wars-empire-at-war-developers-want-to-make-a-triple-a-sequel-electronic-arts-remains-silent/
In a Reddit AMA, Petroglyph, creators of Star Wars: Empire at War, has revealed that it’s currently interesting in a sequel to this Star Wars strategy game. And while the team has pitched such a thing to Electronic Arts, the big publisher has not responded to Petroglyph’s pitch.

>>WTF is EA waiting for?! Just do it!



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

JEMC on 19 January 2018

Friday news part two:

 

New legendary Pharah skin turns the Overwatch rocketeer into a golden snake
http://www.pcgamer.com/new-legendary-pharah-skin-turns-the-overwatch-rocketeer-into-a-golden-snake/
New legendary skins are coming to Overwatch. Back at BlizzCon, Blizzard said that a handful of new skins, including a Nova outfit for Windowmaker and a Butcher getup for Roadhog, will be added to the base, non-event loot box. Today we get a glimpse at Pharah's new skin.

 

Assassin's Creed: Origins' first DLC will arrive next week
http://www.pcgamer.com/asssassins-creed-origins-first-dlc-will-arrive-next-week/
The Assassin's Creed: Origins expansion The Hidden Ones, a showdown between the new Brotherhood of Assassins and the Roman occupiers of the Sinai, will be out on January 23, Ubisoft announced today. Set four years after the events of the main game, The Hidden Ones will introduce four new Legendary weapons, new outfits and mounts, and increase the level cap to 45.

 

Activision Publishing CEO Eric Hirshberg is leaving the company
http://www.pcgamer.com/activision-publishing-ceo-eric-hirshberg-is-leaving-the-company/
After eight years on the job, Activision Publishing CEO Eric Hirshberg has announced that he will leave the company in March. His coming depature was first revealed internally, according to VentureBeat, and then later confirmed by Activision.

 

Offworld Trading Company: Limited Supply DLC swaps stock markets for survival
http://www.pcgamer.com/offworld-trading-company-limited-supply-dlc-swaps-stock-markets-for-survival/
Stardock and Mohawk Games have released a new Offworld Trading Company DLC pack called Limited Supply that includes more than a dozen new scenarios focusing on the single, simple goal of survival.

 

PUBG to ban 100,000 cheaters in 'single wave', blue zone balances being tested
http://www.pcgamer.com/pubg-to-ban-100000-cheaters-in-single-wave-blue-zone-balances-being-tested/
Earlier this week, PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds launched a fairly innocuous PC patch that targeted bugs and client optimisation. "We are hoping to give you an update on what we have been working on soon", said PUBG Corp in this forum post.
Soon is now, it seems, as the developer has announced it will ban 100,000 cheaters in a "single wave" following a comprehensive data review. Moreover, balance adjustments have been applied to the blue zone, which will first appear on test servers.

 

Bungie on Destiny 2 Faction Rally issues: 'This was on us, no excuses'
http://www.pcgamer.com/bungie-on-destiny-2-faction-rally-token-changes-this-was-on-us-no-excuses/
"There has been a lot of feedback on some of the changes made to Faction Rallies in Season 2," so says community manager Cozmo in this weekly update post. "I’d like to take a moment to list some of the larger topics. There is an ongoing process at Bungie to assess how we want to change Destiny 2 in the weeks to come, and your voice is a crucial part of it.
(...)
The post continues: "The other question that players immediately asked when decrypting their Faction Engrams was: 'Where are the new Season 2 weapons?' It was not made clear beforehand that the new Season 2 weapons would be added throughout the events of the Season rather than all at once in the beginning. This was on us. No excuses."

 

Let's take a look now at GOG and Steam deals for the weekend:

+GOG

There are three sales:

+Steam

Here we also have a few sales:

 

And that's all for this week. I hope you all have a happy and gaming weekend.



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

Pemalite on 20 January 2018
caffeinade said:
JEMC said:

The problem of games of that size is that the end product doesn't show what is that space used for. Texture aren't that better to demand two, three or more times the storage capacity they asked for five years ago.

Developers are simply getting lazy and, with the excuse of consoles having HDDs and PC users having large capacity HDDs, they are forgetting about compression and optimization.

I don't know how Source 2 will be of any help, given that only Valve will end using it... and they no longer make many games.

"they are forgetting about compression and optimization."
Come on.
Do you really think developers just, don't compress and / or don't "optimise".
There is only so much you can do when you have 100+ artists working with complex art pipelines.

He's not wrong.

A large portion of a games install size is thanks to Lossless Audio. - And a massive chunk of that is due to localization. I.E. Including extra languages.
Microsoft has actually added hooks to the Xbox software stack in the last year or so, so that games will only download/install the audio that is actually required, saving some space.

Using better compression on Audio and Textures could save 10's of Gigabytes in some extreme cases.
The flip side to that is that... Decompression tends to be CPU heavy if you don't have the dedicated capabilities natively in hardware to offload it to... And CPU time is not exactly in abundance on the consoles.

JEMC isn't saying there is zero compression per-say. Just that it's insufficient, it can always be taken another step farther.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--