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Forums - Politics Discussion - Capital Punishment

If the penalty fit the crime perfectly, petty theft would explode. Imagine stealing $10 here and there, knowing that if you get caught you're only going to have to pony up $10. It makes absolutely no sense. Risk would be almost nothing and crime would skyrocket to ridiculous heights.

I agree though, kill the murderers. If a person has proven that they are just a broken human being and cannot function in society, kill them. Stop wasting our money on keeping them alive and well.



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famousringo said:

 

Capital punishment isn't going to make me safer, so what good is it to me?

3. Capital crime perpetuates a cultural myth that problems can best be solved by finding the right person and killing him. I used to think this Wild West kind of mythology was why murder rates were so much higher in the US than other heavily armed developed countries like Canada and Switzerland. After recently seeing some data on how closely gun ownership correlates with gun deaths, I'm not so sure anymore, but I think it's worth keeping in mind. 

It's not such a leap of imagination that if the state thinks the worst members of society should be killed, individual (well-armed) citizens might be justified in using lethal force to be rid of people they think are most horrible.

Perpetuating a culture of where death is an acceptable solution to problems makes me less safe, especially if somebody were to decide that I'm a problem.

So there you have it. Capital punishment does nothing to enhance my personal safety. In fact, it puts it further in jeopardy by giving the state more circumstances to kill me and validating killing as a solution to problems. Furthermore, it consumes resources which would be better spent elsewhere for no measurable gains in security.

 

Never even thought of these points 



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famousringo said:

 

Capital punishment isn't going to make me safer, so what good is it to me?

3. Capital crime perpetuates a cultural myth that problems can best be solved by finding the right person and killing him. I used to think this Wild West kind of mythology was why murder rates were so much higher in the US than other heavily armed developed countries like Canada and Switzerland. After recently seeing some data on how closely gun ownership correlates with gun deaths, I'm not so sure anymore, but I think it's worth keeping in mind. 

It's not such a leap of imagination that if the state thinks the worst members of society should be killed, individual (well-armed) citizens might be justified in using lethal force to be rid of people they think are most horrible.

 

The majority of Gun Deaths are suicides.  Something like 2/3rds  in the US so that line of thinking doesn't really hold up.  When more gun are available, more suicides happen with guns because it's the quickest and eaisiet way to attempt suicide.  

 

Or for that matter... the easiest way to muder most people.   That people will use the most effective available tool to do something shouldn't be a surprise or change your opinion on anything.


Gun/Homicide rates are very weakly correlated, but show no correlation if you remove outliers like reputable scientists would.

Really things like poverty and gangs correlate much better when it comes to homicide.  "Wild West" attitudes I wouldn't be so sure about... well outside the feeling in some communties that the Police are untrustworthy and they have to rely on themseles/ No snitching culture.

 

That people are more likely to kill others because the government does seems unlikely... since if anything that gives people who would kill more faith in the government.   Wild West attitudes occur when people feel like they can't rely on the government.

I'd suggest that the reason why our murder rates are so high in the US at least is because a lot of poorer areas don't trust the cops because they can harrass.  Espeically criminals and people in gangs.  Homicide rates are highest among groups that face unusual poverty and have a high distrust for the police.   While groups that generally trust the police and do ok in the economy have murder rates consistant with Western Europe.



That said... I don' think capital punishment has ANY effect on the murder rate.

I actually think it's quite probably the opposite.

The higher the murder rate, the more likely capital punishment will be an option because people will be more willing for extreme measures/looking for revenge.



For a first serious offence such as murder of one person: 25 years in prison

If they serve their sentence and then commit a similar crime then kill them. Less burden on tax payers for someone who can't be rehabilitated.

Also, mass murder, infanticide and pedophiles should receive the death penalty. Those who falsely accuse others of these crimes should serve time as well.

Just my 2 cents.



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Kasz216 said:
famousringo said:

 

Capital punishment isn't going to make me safer, so what good is it to me?

3. Capital crime perpetuates a cultural myth that problems can best be solved by finding the right person and killing him. I used to think this Wild West kind of mythology was why murder rates were so much higher in the US than other heavily armed developed countries like Canada and Switzerland. After recently seeing some data on how closely gun ownership correlates with gun deaths, I'm not so sure anymore, but I think it's worth keeping in mind. 

It's not such a leap of imagination that if the state thinks the worst members of society should be killed, individual (well-armed) citizens might be justified in using lethal force to be rid of people they think are most horrible.

 

The majority of Gun Deaths are suicides.  Something like 2/3rds  in the US so that line of thinking doesn't really hold up.  When more gun are available, more suicides happen with guns because it's the quickest and eaisiet way to attempt suicide.  

 

Or for that matter... the easiest way to muder most people.   That people will use the most effective available tool to do something shouldn't be a surprise or change your opinion on anything.


Gun/Homicide rates are very weakly correlated, but show no correlation if you remove outliers like reputable scientists would.

Really things like poverty and gangs correlate much better when it comes to homicide.  "Wild West" attitudes I wouldn't be so sure about... well outside the feeling in some communties that the Police are untrustworthy and they have to rely on themseles/ No snitching culture.

 

That people are more likely to kill others because the government does seems unlikely... since if anything that gives people who would kill more faith in the government.   Wild West attitudes occur when people feel like they can't rely on the government.

I'd suggest that the reason why our murder rates are so high in the US at least is because a lot of poorer areas don't trust the cops because they can harrass.  Espeically criminals and people in gangs.  Homicide rates are highest among groups that face unusual poverty and have a high distrust for the police.   While groups that generally trust the police and do ok in the economy have murder rates consistant with Western Europe.

You can back out suicide if you like, that still leaves Americans seven times more likely to be murdered by firearm than Canadians, and four times more likely to die from firearm-related accidents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

The US has three times the guns. Interestingly, the three point spread between the two countries' gun murder rates matches the three point spread between their overall murder rates. 

Edit: However, I would never argue that poverty isn't a very important, perhaps the most important, factor in violent crime rates.



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famousringo said:
Kasz216 said:
famousringo said:

 

 

 

 

You can back out suicide if you like, that still leaves Americans seven times more likely to be murdered by firearm than Canadians, and four times more likely to die from firearm-related accidents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

The US has three times the guns. Interestingly, the three point spread between the two countries' gun murder rates matches the three point spread between their overall murder rates. 

Edit: However, I would never argue that poverty isn't a very important, perhaps the most important, factor in violent crime rates.

Like... 3 times the guns per capita?    Because when it comes to people own guns only like 34% of americans own guns so it's only a 1.4X difference.  

And outside that you totally are arguieng that poverty isn't very important, because despite the US having more poverty (and really more importantly, gangs caused by defacto segregation poverty) since you are argueing the violent crime rate differene is caused by the difference in gun murders.

 

A simple way to show you why your preise is flawed is simply to look at something a bit more comparable.  The US states with each other.

 

VS

 

The US states with higher gun ownership rates actually tend to have significantly HIGHER poverty too...  (additionaly murder has decreased while crime has increased)

it's not so much pvoerty as certain kinds of poverty.  The kind that lends to people feeling completlely isolated from society... just how for people who "take the law in their own hands" it's mostly out of feeling they have to.

People are more likely to die buy guns in places with more guns for the same reason more bottled soft drinks are going to be consumed over cans in states with lots of bottle openers vs states with less.