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Forums - General Discussion - Where is God hiding?

Ouroboros24 on 19 April 2013
dsgrue3 said:

Things we once attributed to God(s):

 

  • Sun
  • Moon
  • Lightning
  • Volcanic eruptions
  • Hurricanes
  • Tornados
  • Earthquakes
  • Universe's Inception
  • Life from non-life
  • Species (plants/animals)
  • Crop Harvest
  • Death

 

What's left:

 

  • Sun
  • Moon
  • Lightning
  • Volcanic eruptions
  • Hurricanes
  • Tornados
  • Earthquakes
  • Universe's Inception
  • Life from non-life
  • Species (plants/animals)
  • Crop Harvest
  • Death

 

When there are no more gaps for God to hide in, what then? This list is certainly not intended to be inclusive of all the silly things once attributed to God, just a simple example of the diminishing returns on an investment - i.e. a belief in some ultimate Creator.

Let me pose a hypothetical because I think it has some application to some time in the future. Suppose there are no gaps in scientific knowledge where a Creator could possibly be applied. What then? Do you abandon a belief or simply change that belief to conform to the reality we've come to understand through scientific discovery?

Side question: Suppose there is a God, but it is not a personal one. Does it then become obsolete to worship such an entity? Would religion simply go away in such a circumstance given how most (if not all) are based upon a personal God?

Can we not agree, that if there is a God, this God will have unlimited powers.  That being said, this God is all because God has it in its power to be all.  Then can we say that God then is Us and we are God since God is all.  Taking all that into consideration, does that then mean that God does not care about Us, since he is Us?  Or is it because he is Us, and since we care, God cares about Us? 

To be Honest, I believe there is a being with God powers.  He is not our personal God, but the God that has created all.  He is not a good or bad God, simply the creator.  Just like a Sim game where you create, but ultimately have no real compassion for your creations.  You may have pride for your creation, but that's not the same as loving the child your wife bears. 



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Ouroboros24 on 19 April 2013
richardhutnik said:
pokoko said:
On a serious note, god existing or not, I will never, ever understand the concept of worship. I don't get it. In fact, I would automatically lose respect for any god that required worship. It's an immature and fearful idea born from immature and fearful cultures.

If there really is a god out there, and he's as illuminated as people claim, I would imagine that he face-palms quite often over the whole bowing and kneeling thing. He's probably waiting for humanity to stand up and start thinking for itself on a regular basis.

Explain what the point of the that picture in your profile for me. I don't get it.

My understanding of worship, in its many forms, is that people feel a need to trumpet things they see of superior value to others, to show virtue and whatnot.  There is also a desire to have things that are sacred.  Real worship involves doing things to reflect the ideals of the object of the worship, and reflect its nature, and then when seeing it express one's feelings towards it.  That is the heart of worship actually.  And you see a LOT of it on this site, in these forums thrown at this game or that, or this fictional character or that.

Your over all assessment of worship is accurate, but your belief of embedded signatures here on this site doesn't necessarily reflect that of worship.  I personally don't like to project any sort of worship or fandom, hence mines being empty, but I think most people who do don't necessarily think their sigs are evangelically praising their specific likes or interests.  Simply that they are personally involve with what they have and they'd like to share that with people. 



BenVTrigger on 19 April 2013

Outside of our Universe if there is one. The fact you even imply that a god would exist within the confines of his own creation shows your just trying to downplay the fact there very well could be a god.

If god exists he won't be anywhere for you or I to see. If you sit down and made a drawing would you exist within it? No. Now if the characters you drew had thoughts of their own and they said to each other "This drawing must have created itself and us as well because we can't see any artist who drew us". Would they be correct? No they wouldn't.

Personally I'm not religious but atheist are the same as the characters in the drawing. Using their own limited logic to try and describe things far bigger and infinitely more complex than themselves.



Talal on 19 April 2013

Mount Olympus.



binary solo on 19 April 2013

You can cross out life from non-life.

But you left out the most important thing: the universe, existence itself.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

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jake_the_fake1 on 19 April 2013

God is said to be everywhere, he is said to have created us as well as created the everything that exists, he also seems to be unable to show him self now in our present day despite all the technology we have, but what if he's been there all along, what if we've already seen 'GOD' already?

What if this 'GOD' is just the Universe as we know it, after all one must consider that the universe has the materials for life, as well as the mechanisms for planets and suns to be formed, in effect the Universe and the way in which it works not only created our our planet, but also the conditions for life which sprang forth...hence some saying that we are nothing more than star dust.

So If the word 'GOD' simply refers to our Universe, then this will explain why no amount of worship gets a response, after all the Universe is not a sentient being, nor does it have a shape or form, also the universe is everywhere and ever present, existing along side us in the material universe.

Although we have detected the universe and can see it with out telescopes, we turned our head from our true creator and looked for one which was man made and ones who description is dogmatic, lucky our true creator has no resentment for our transgressions, but be assured that once our lives expire we will re-join our creator in ever lasting bliss.

Think about this for one moment, the word 'GOD' through out our recorded history has always been used to explain things we didn't know, even till this day the higgs boson was labeled the 'GOD' particle as it was just a theory, but lost that label as soon as physicist found it through their LHC experiments. The label 'GOD' can easily be used on the Universe because as some have said here, the universe is so expansive that we can not hope to know everything about it or that it's so complicated that we can not hope to know everything, there for labeling it 'GOD' fits within religion as it currently stands....the only thing religious people need to know is that worship for their faith is GOOD but 'GOD' is not a genie who grants wishes when one prays for things, and in the case of our Universe 'GOD' its something it can never understand let alone grant, so I suppose praying for things has no harm either way.

This is an idea that's been floating around in my head and one I've note seen posted or even talked about anywhere. Take it or leave it, but I would like any and all to at least have a think about my proposed idea and draw your on conclusions from it.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.



dsgrue3 on 19 April 2013
cunger said:

Science doesn't disprove God and God doesn't disprove science.   One provide answers to questions like how and when while the other provides answers to questions like who and why.  I can't wait until all of us have evolved to the level of being able to understand this concept.

Religion does not answer any questions dude. That's philosophy not theology.

Bong Lover said:

Your exclusive list and assumption that science has somehow encroached on the possibility of God exsisting or not is misguided. A misguided belief that you share with Stephen Hawkin by the way, so you're in good company.

As for the side question:

Yes, it makes as much sense to worship an impersonal god as a personal god. Just like it makes sense to worship the game library of the PS3 or any number of things people want to worship.

Finally, I guess some could find an image of God dressed up as Waldo a little offensive. Myself, I think considering the flawed premise of the thread that it's quite funny.

And your assumption that my meaning was to address the existence of God is entirely misguided. This was simply a rebuttal to the "God of the gaps" argument that has become ubiquitous.

I don't go to Sony US headquarters every Sunday and listen to the VP talk about how great it is and how it is a way to salvation. Loose definitions of worship won't save you here I'm afraid. That's called being a fan - no different from supporting (not worshipping) your favorite sports team.

richardhutnik said:

Problem in this individualistic culture, about the only thing that unites people now is human tragedy.  On the religious front, at least you get some positive fellowship, rather than that of suffering.  You get some unity that does't require a bomb going off.

And pardon my being very blunt here, but I am disappointed by threads like this.  They are generally simplistic in their views and really are just rehashing.  I can run the book of Job ending and have people get back to me when they understand everything.  Issues in regards to theological stuff generally is far more involved with limits of human reasoning and capacities than with the God side.  Free will vs determinism?  Where did everything come from?  Where are we heading?  Is there life after death?  Why is there evil in the world?  All these also show how stupid and weak humans are in the big picture.  Plug in other ones also.

lolwut, suicide bombers are exclusively theistic.

Questions such as those are best left to philosophy, not to theology as you're making quite the assumption to state that they are theological by nature.

binary solo said:
You can cross out life from non-life.

But you left out the most important thing: the universe, existence itself.

I'd love to see a source about life from non-life, so far as I know the Millery-Urey experiment is as far as abiogenesis has come. It's the chemistry -> biology that is missing.

The Universe is in there - it's crossed out due to the plausibility of a Universe from "nothing."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EilZ4VY5Vs



Nem on 19 April 2013

He is in mah pocket! Wanna take a peek?



KungKras on 19 April 2013
richardhutnik said:

Hidden in the desires of people to worship something.  Take out God, and you have people sticking videogames in their signatures, praising the glory of what they perceive will win their platform of choice more followers.

I am still awaiting atheistic art that ends up having similar enduring value as theistic works.  Oh, I see some corporate stuff, but the likes of Star Trek isn't even a preaching piece for secular humanism any longer.  What it is now is nothing but a device to entertain people.  Mind you, the Star Trek reboot does a great job of that, but still, it misses the moralizing of Gene Roddenbury.

Do I go with the Golden Compass?  Maybe that is it. 

Problem in this individualistic culture, about the only thing that unites people now is human tragedy.  On the religious front, at least you get some positive fellowship, rather than that of suffering.  You get some unity that does't require a bomb going off.

And pardon my being very blunt here, but I am disappointed by threads like this.  They are generally simplistic in their views and really are just rehashing.  I can run the book of Job ending and have people get back to me when they understand everything.  Issues in regards to theological stuff generally is far more involved with limits of human reasoning and capacities than with the God side.  Free will vs determinism?  Where did everything come from?  Where are we heading?  Is there life after death?  Why is there evil in the world?  All these also show how stupid and weak humans are in the big picture.  Plug in other ones also.

If humans weren't so weak, then we would have more secure futures, not worry about life after death (death would of been cured), and not have to worry about human suffering.  But, these problems remain, showing how pathetic humans are currently.

Well, except when acting in non-normal manners and transcending the natural order of things.

 @ Bold. What is that supposed to mean? Isn't theistic art just the mosaics in the church windows and all the paintins with religious motives. In that case, Atheistic art would be everything else, and in that case, H.R Giger, Claude Monet, Salvador Dali, etc all do more interesting stuff than that.



I LOVE ICELAND!

pokoko on 19 April 2013
richardhutnik said:
pokoko said:
richardhutnik said:
pokoko said:
On a serious note, god existing or not, I will never, ever understand the concept of worship. I don't get it. In fact, I would automatically lose respect for any god that required worship. It's an immature and fearful idea born from immature and fearful cultures.

If there really is a god out there, and he's as illuminated as people claim, I would imagine that he face-palms quite often over the whole bowing and kneeling thing. He's probably waiting for humanity to stand up and start thinking for itself on a regular basis.

Explain what the point of the that picture in your profile for me. I don't get it.

My understanding of worship, in its many forms, is that people feel a need to trumpet things they see of superior value to others, to show virtue and whatnot.  There is also a desire to have things that are sacred.  Real worship involves doing things to reflect the ideals of the object of the worship, and reflect its nature, and then when seeing it express one's feelings towards it.  That is the heart of worship actually.  And you see a LOT of it on this site, in these forums thrown at this game or that, or this fictional character or that.

Are you really, actually somehow suggesting that I worship a picture because I like it?  Come, now.  You know that's a failure as an analogy.  Worship, for most people, is about dedication and surrender.  With many religions it comes with the warning that suffering is the alternative.  Most forms of christianity will say that worship is a requirement, which goes far beyond the idea of simply communicating what you like or respect.

That brings to mind the undercurrent running through Dan Simmons' Hyperion novels, that humanity has paid its dues to god and no longer needs to bow and scrape, that we've offered up enough.

Worship is the esteeming something very highly and showing reverence towards it, for numerous reasons.  This can be shown in a lot of different forms.  This impulse is seen in forums like this, towards different things.  And I say this also based on scientific research show.  The same part of the brain that becomes active during religious worship, is the same part of the brain associated with loyalty to certain commercial brains.  In short, it is the same thing to the human mind.  If you have irrational devotion towards something, it is a religious impulse.

http://consumerist.com/2011/05/20/mri-shows-apple-stimulates-fans-brains-like-religion/

Pretty much, YES fanboys look like religious zealots, because they exercise the same part of the brain as religious zealots do, and reason the same.  And their behavior is religous worship towards whatever object them esteem.

Pick a few churches at random, go inside, and tell them that when they're dedicating and giving over their lives and souls to their chosen deity, that it's the same as when someone likes Nintendo or Microsoft.  Film it, too, please.  Then maybe tell us about how the crusades, inquisitions, and jihads are the same as fanboy wars on the forums.  Don't forget the people who flay themselves, or live in strict obedience to scripture.  Seriously, just because the same part of the brain is active doesn't mean they are even close to the same magnitude.  LOTS of different stimuli activate similar parts of the brain.  Holy cats, dude, I can't even believe you're trying to push that comparision.  Hell, I don't even go to church anymore, and I think god is something of a jerk, but even I'm kind of offended that you'd call picking a brand name product the same as surrendering your fate to something you really, really believe in.