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Forums - Politics Discussion - Margaret Thatcher RIP.

Mr Khan on 09 April 2013
kowenicki said:
Mr Khan said:
kowenicki said:
Mr Khan said:
scottie said:
Thatcher is the one thing in this world that makes me wish religion is true.

I wish there were an afterlife, so she could suffer as much in it as she made people suffer in this life.

You know, i had almost the exact same thought (since i too am an agnostic).

Not to be too harsh.  But what the hell do you know about UK mid 70's and what she inherited and HAD to sort out.  Nothing!.

I lived it pal.

There's a special place in (the purely hypothetical) hell for unionbusters. Simple as that.

In an addendum, it's due to her policies that you guys would be Switzerland with nukes if not for the EU, just a place to play financial games.

Bolded: Like I said you havent got a clue.  Tell me about the history of the Miners union, about the individuals involved, then tell me about the winter of disconetent.  You cant, you know nothing of it.  

You joined the union in that job you eventually managed to get?

Bravo on the final sentence though... patronising, condescending, arrogant and totally wrong all in one handy package.

There is no union here, but there doesn't really need to be one. Government contracts tend to be fairly strict, so they get little leeway in how they can treat us.

Although i do wish that more American workers found their own damn testicles and stood up to companies. You lot would do well to do the same.

I don't doubt that there are complexities regarding the mining union, and yet if it weren't for folks like them and their predecessors, you would have never had the opportunity to get out of that slum you spoke of earlier. You would be a commodity. We all would be. Anyone who stands against that is a class traitor, and they were once dealt with appropriately, in a time when people were bolder.



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Kasz216 on 09 April 2013
Mr Khan said:
kowenicki said:
Mr Khan said:
kowenicki said:
Mr Khan said:
scottie said:
Thatcher is the one thing in this world that makes me wish religion is true.

I wish there were an afterlife, so she could suffer as much in it as she made people suffer in this life.

You know, i had almost the exact same thought (since i too am an agnostic).

Not to be too harsh.  But what the hell do you know about UK mid 70's and what she inherited and HAD to sort out.  Nothing!.

I lived it pal.

There's a special place in (the purely hypothetical) hell for unionbusters. Simple as that.

In an addendum, it's due to her policies that you guys would be Switzerland with nukes if not for the EU, just a place to play financial games.

Bolded: Like I said you havent got a clue.  Tell me about the history of the Miners union, about the individuals involved, then tell me about the winter of disconetent.  You cant, you know nothing of it.  

You joined the union in that job you eventually managed to get?

Bravo on the final sentence though... patronising, condescending, arrogant and totally wrong all in one handy package.

There is no union here, but there doesn't really need to be one. Government contracts tend to be fairly strict, so they get little leeway in how they can treat us.

Although i do wish that more American workers found their own damn testicles and stood up to companies. You lot would do well to do the same.

I don't doubt that there are complexities regarding the mining union, and yet if it weren't for folks like them and their predecessors, you would have never had the opportunity to get out of that slum you spoke of earlier. You would be a commodity. We all would be. Anyone who stands against that is a class traitor, and they were once dealt with appropriately, in a time when people were bolder.

So... if those coal workers go on strike... and their demands will literally bankrupt a currently healthy company in 3 weeks... being against them makes you a class tratior and you should be killed.

 

or say  if the go on strike and refuse to let anybody else in to mine coal... during a blizzard.. and tons of (poor) people are dieing...

anybody who stands against them is a class tratior?

There is literally no situation in which one can be against a union without being a class traitor who should be murdered....

 

You feeling ok today Khan?



Kynes on 09 April 2013

Just out of curiosity. Would a normal user have been banned if s/he said what Mr Kahn said? The cynic on me wants to know it.



the2real4mafol on 09 April 2013
kowenicki said:
the2real4mafol said:
Maybe the unions had too much power before Thatcher came into power but she destroyed numerous rural communities out there, manufacturing and mining were especially hit hard. Many places that grew on these 2 things haven't recovered since then, despite being 30 years. You may point out the miners strike of 84, but she was going to shut them down anyway. These people were fighting for there livelihoods and she took it from anyway. The community spirit in such places was destroyed for good and to think we could of been in a good position selling our good coal to China and India right now if the mining industry had survived. The hatred from the North is because so gutted such mining communities of there souls. 

And if manufacturing is so alive here, where is it? Every factory in my area has vanished, they are either abandoned or some housing development now.

And you surely can't defend the Poll Tax of 1989, in any system a Lord shouldn't pay the same tax rate as a council tenant, that's extremely unfair and i'm glad we the people defeated her on that (partly thanks to Scotland)

And you say she liberated the working class, how? Unemployment was much higher back then, i think it peaked at 3 million and she closed the GLC because that number was leaked. Deindustrialisation played apart but so did privatisation. Inflation was also high at 15% at times. Interest rates were as high as 15% at times. VAT was raised by alot, hurting the poor even more in a tough time. And i partly blame her for today's recession because of deregulating the finance sector (which only benefitted London by the way), which has lead to a rediculous bonus culture for CEO's of Banks. The massive sell off of our assets means we don't even benefit from the profit, British rail, BT, British gas and others had. The profits are now left in some off shore bank account doing nothing. And prices have gone through the roof since privatisation, just look at how expensive trains are these days and look at the huge profits British gas make despite falling energy prices.

I'm not sure how much this has to do with her, but the Media seemed to be biased in her favour by any media that Rupert Murdoch owned. It's possible she had a deal with him to get good press just like Tony Blair did. Man I hate the Sun, worst paper ever. News shouldn't be biased in anyway. Also, the BBC admitted it altered any footage of the Miner's strike to make it look like the police were attacked when it was the opposite way round.

Northern Ireland- she pretty much acted like the British Empire did there. She had the army repress the people there which caused widespread violence. It's no wonder the IRA tried to blow her up in Brighton in 1984. Since, Labour devolved power to Northern Ireland in 1999, there has been much more peace.

Education- she did little to make it better and new schools and equipment was needed. I'm proud to have been educated under Labour for nearly my whole education. It's a shame Tories want to fuck it up now. 

I won't talk about Hillsbourough but there were many riots under her rule. Brixton being just one of them.

What good did she actually for Scotland, Wales, the Midlands etc. Scotland and Wales were completely controlled by Westminister back then but seemingly ignored by her

It's not all bad though i think some things she did were good.

The Falklands, she defended our territory as the people living wanted despite no backing up from Reagan or any non-communist european leaders. It's a shame, Argentina would just forget about it already. It was never theirs.

Despite mass privatisation, she left the NHS alone. Hopefully, Cameron will too.

She was a strong leader, did she ever really u-turn on anything?

Europe- i like that she was skeptic about the project. Just look at the mess it's in now, even though we are no better off. 

Finally

Socialism may be dead for now, but do you really think this form of capitalism is failing big time. Growing up into such a broken system now, i don't trust it. I'm gonna start a degree this year and might not even be able to get a job when i finish in 3 and a bit years time. the current economy shows no future at all. Not Thatcher's fault but it's capitalism fault. Boom and bust must stop now. A mixture of capitalism with Socialism is best.

Overall, better than Blair but i still overwhelmingly disagree with her. At least she could win a war. Also, Blair's ID cards idea was also bad

USSR- all she and Reagan did was put pressure on them. The Soviets couldn't handle it and so dissolved it and went to Capitalism. Gorbachev lead a peaceful transition to Capitalism. 

I dont want to get into a political debate here but a lot of that is frankly nonsense.

Proud to have been educated under Labour?  what the hell does that even mean?

Your last sentence about the USSR is hilarious... all she did?  lol. 

If I take two parts as an example of how you have been reading or listening to silly propaganda...

1. Labour gave devolution to N.Ireland!?!?  wtf?  Devolution was a Tory action, started in the early 1990's by John Major and completed in 1999 by Labour.  Learn your history. I worked in Belfast for a time in 1996, the army had all but vanished (sentry posts had gone) and the devolution talks had begun. Some of the worst happening in N.Ireland happened under Labour as much as Tory governments.

2. "I think it peaked at 3 million and she closed the GLC because that number was leaked"

Yes unemployment continued to rise under Thatcher at first... but it also ended up falling massively by the time her policies had taken hold.  And saying that she closed the GLC for leaking the number is a load of old bollocks.  The office for national statistice release unemplyment data monthly, always has, always will, why would the General London Council have anything to do with that!?  Very odd thing to say.

Also, manufacturing exports from the UK hardly changed under Thatcher... thats a fact. Yes certain industries closed.. rightly as they were dying and a mess, but other took their place.  Again by the end of her tenure the exports were rising dramatically. 

The UK is still in the top 10 biggest global exporters of goods and is the 3rd biggest global exporter of services.  Dont believe the hype that we have no industry.

Essentially the message is no gain without pain.  It was a pain, it was very painful for some, but it was a pain that was required and essential for the time.    Socialism isn't dead for now, its dead forever here, they lost the argument.

 

1. Northern Ireland got devolution as apart of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, a Labour government. Maybe John Major promised it but he got voted out before he could. Not like he could because of all the leadership challenges he faced ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

2. She didn't like the GLC though as it was a labour stronghold in the 1980's. In particular, she hated Ken Livingston. She saw him as a thorn in her side, because he wanted to do the opposite.

And you may point out GDP rose alot in the 80's, but alot of hard working class people never benefitted from it. Only bosses of big companies in the city gained, just like now. And it's only good if an industry like coal or steel closes, if you find away to grow other industries so these workers can work. The whole idea of a community was very much destroyed because some communities did one job type only. That's where the hate comes from.

And what's good having services if they are owned by a foreign company or individual, that profit made don't even stay here.

But you can say i'm brainwashed all you like, but to say socialism will never come back is certainly brainwashed. Stop reading the Daily Mail and just look at the real world. Most people aren't happy with the Tories or the Lib Dems or even Labour. Why else would there be so many strikes? They may not achieve anything but ordinary people aren't happy about the government before them today. When there's people relying on food banks because they don't get paid enough (they aren't scourgers!), When there's people who have to give up their cars and so on, the people will get angry. They want someone to actually represent them rather than a small elite of idiots who don't understand ordinary life for the working class. People like Iain Duncan Smith prove how stupid many MP's are, but i dare him to try to live on £53 a week! All the policies that today's Conservative government do, are certainly doing them no favours. Even there own followers are starting to have enough and are going to UKIP, while the Liberals mostly go to Labour. Conservatism isn't popular here, people just haven't found the alternatives yet. Either way, Market based Capitalism has failed and things must change. The UK is supposed to be a representative democracy and currently it certainly isn't that. 



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mrstickball on 09 April 2013

To me, this is the most poingant picture of Mrs. Thatcher:

 

 

Mrs. Thatcher and Gorbachav sat beside eachother at Reagan's funeral. Man, talk about times changing. I think it speaks to the power of humanity - that the greatest leaders of the cold war came together for one last time to say goodbye to the American leader that (helped) destroy Gorbachav's regime.

Hate on Thatcher all you want, but she did what was right and good. Not what was good right now. Great role model for women.



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MakeAmazing on 09 April 2013

Some of their policies at the time were pretty rubbish, and some were good (like most governments), and those that they screwed up, well Labour didn't fix after they got into power. But it was over 30 years ago, its surprising how some people are so unable to move on from that time.

I was a kid at the time of the Falklands, and she really did come across as a powerful leader, and to be honest thats what Britain needed at the time.

As for those 100 or so people having parties, or celebrating, well they make me want to go live on a desert island. Whatever the politics, wishing/celebrating someone is dead who wasn't a tyrant, makes me feel quite sick.



the2real4mafol on 09 April 2013
kowenicki said:
the2real4mafol said:
kowenicki said:
the2real4mafol said:
Maybe the unions had too much power before Thatcher came into power but she destroyed numerous rural communities out there, manufacturing and mining were especially hit hard. Many places that grew on these 2 things haven't recovered since then, despite being 30 years. You may point out the miners strike of 84, but she was going to shut them down anyway. These people were fighting for there livelihoods and she took it from anyway. The community spirit in such places was destroyed for good and to think we could of been in a good position selling our good coal to China and India right now if the mining industry had survived. The hatred from the North is because so gutted such mining communities of there souls. 

And if manufacturing is so alive here, where is it? Every factory in my area has vanished, they are either abandoned or some housing development now.

And you surely can't defend the Poll Tax of 1989, in any system a Lord shouldn't pay the same tax rate as a council tenant, that's extremely unfair and i'm glad we the people defeated her on that (partly thanks to Scotland)

And you say she liberated the working class, how? Unemployment was much higher back then, i think it peaked at 3 million and she closed the GLC because that number was leaked. Deindustrialisation played apart but so did privatisation. Inflation was also high at 15% at times. Interest rates were as high as 15% at times. VAT was raised by alot, hurting the poor even more in a tough time. And i partly blame her for today's recession because of deregulating the finance sector (which only benefitted London by the way), which has lead to a rediculous bonus culture for CEO's of Banks. The massive sell off of our assets means we don't even benefit from the profit, British rail, BT, British gas and others had. The profits are now left in some off shore bank account doing nothing. And prices have gone through the roof since privatisation, just look at how expensive trains are these days and look at the huge profits British gas make despite falling energy prices.

I'm not sure how much this has to do with her, but the Media seemed to be biased in her favour by any media that Rupert Murdoch owned. It's possible she had a deal with him to get good press just like Tony Blair did. Man I hate the Sun, worst paper ever. News shouldn't be biased in anyway. Also, the BBC admitted it altered any footage of the Miner's strike to make it look like the police were attacked when it was the opposite way round.

Northern Ireland- she pretty much acted like the British Empire did there. She had the army repress the people there which caused widespread violence. It's no wonder the IRA tried to blow her up in Brighton in 1984. Since, Labour devolved power to Northern Ireland in 1999, there has been much more peace.

Education- she did little to make it better and new schools and equipment was needed. I'm proud to have been educated under Labour for nearly my whole education. It's a shame Tories want to fuck it up now. 

I won't talk about Hillsbourough but there were many riots under her rule. Brixton being just one of them.

What good did she actually for Scotland, Wales, the Midlands etc. Scotland and Wales were completely controlled by Westminister back then but seemingly ignored by her

It's not all bad though i think some things she did were good.

The Falklands, she defended our territory as the people living wanted despite no backing up from Reagan or any non-communist european leaders. It's a shame, Argentina would just forget about it already. It was never theirs.

Despite mass privatisation, she left the NHS alone. Hopefully, Cameron will too.

She was a strong leader, did she ever really u-turn on anything?

Europe- i like that she was skeptic about the project. Just look at the mess it's in now, even though we are no better off. 

Finally

Socialism may be dead for now, but do you really think this form of capitalism is failing big time. Growing up into such a broken system now, i don't trust it. I'm gonna start a degree this year and might not even be able to get a job when i finish in 3 and a bit years time. the current economy shows no future at all. Not Thatcher's fault but it's capitalism fault. Boom and bust must stop now. A mixture of capitalism with Socialism is best.

Overall, better than Blair but i still overwhelmingly disagree with her. At least she could win a war. Also, Blair's ID cards idea was also bad

USSR- all she and Reagan did was put pressure on them. The Soviets couldn't handle it and so dissolved it and went to Capitalism. Gorbachev lead a peaceful transition to Capitalism. 

I dont want to get into a political debate here but a lot of that is frankly nonsense.

Proud to have been educated under Labour?  what the hell does that even mean?

Your last sentence about the USSR is hilarious... all she did?  lol. 

If I take two parts as an example of how you have been reading or listening to silly propaganda...

1. Labour gave devolution to N.Ireland!?!?  wtf?  Devolution was a Tory action, started in the early 1990's by John Major and completed in 1999 by Labour.  Learn your history. I worked in Belfast for a time in 1996, the army had all but vanished (sentry posts had gone) and the devolution talks had begun. Some of the worst happening in N.Ireland happened under Labour as much as Tory governments.

2. "I think it peaked at 3 million and she closed the GLC because that number was leaked"

Yes unemployment continued to rise under Thatcher at first... but it also ended up falling massively by the time her policies had taken hold.  And saying that she closed the GLC for leaking the number is a load of old bollocks.  The office for national statistice release unemplyment data monthly, always has, always will, why would the General London Council have anything to do with that!?  Very odd thing to say.

Also, manufacturing exports from the UK hardly changed under Thatcher... thats a fact. Yes certain industries closed.. rightly as they were dying and a mess, but other took their place.  Again by the end of her tenure the exports were rising dramatically. 

The UK is still in the top 10 biggest global exporters of goods and is the 3rd biggest global exporter of services.  Dont believe the hype that we have no industry.

Essentially the message is no gain without pain.  It was a pain, it was very painful for some, but it was a pain that was required and essential for the time.    Socialism isn't dead for now, its dead forever here, they lost the argument.

 

1. Northern Ireland got devolution as apart of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, a Labour government. Maybe John Major promised it but he got voted out before he could. Not like he could because of all the leadership challenges he faced ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

2. She didn't like the GLC though as it was a labour stronghold in the 1980's. In particular, she hated Ken Livingston. She saw him as a thorn in her side, because he wanted to do the opposite.

And you may point out GDP rose alot in the 80's, but alot of hard working class people never benefitted from it. Only bosses of big companies in the city gained, just like now. And it's only good if an industry like coal or steel closes, if you find away to grow other industries so these workers can work. The whole idea of a community was very much destroyed because some communities did one job type only. That's where the hate comes from.

And what's good having services if they are owned by a foreign company or individual, that profit made don't even stay here.

But you can say i'm brainwashed all you like, but to say socialism will never come back is certainly brainwashed. Stop reading the Daily Mail and just look at the real world. Most people aren't happy with the Tories or the Lib Dems or even Labour. Why else would there be so many strikes? They may not achieve anything but ordinary people aren't happy about the government before them today. When there's people relying on food banks because they don't get paid enough (they aren't scourgers!), When there's people who have to give up their cars and so on, the people will get angry. They want someone to actually represent them rather than a small elite of idiots who don't understand ordinary life for the working class. People like Iain Duncan Smith prove how stupid many MP's are, but i dare him to try to live on £53 a week! All the policies that today's Conservative government do, are certainly doing them no favours. Even there own followers are starting to have enough and are going to UKIP, while the Liberals mostly go to Labour. Conservatism isn't popular here, people just haven't found the alternatives yet. Either way, Market based Capitalism has failed and things must change. The UK is supposed to be a representative democracy and currently it certainly isn't that. 

heard it all before over decades.... not happening.

keep dreaming your idealogical dream. 

I can only say the same to you, we will see 



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

Soleron on 09 April 2013

Well I dislike everything she did except the coal mine closures. Having a competitive business be state run was inefficient.

Selling off natural monopolies like rail, power and water was stupid. Now we just have overcharging and undermaintenance, and yet the government still covers the losses of the rail franchises when they fail. Worst of both worlds.

Selling off council houses led to the shortage of social housing and did nothing to solve the general housing undersupply.

Regressive taxes were obviously bad.

Ambivalent about her stance on Europe, because I think free trade is good but political unity with disparate cultures and economies is bad.

There's no party I can vote for that will give me capitalism in most businesses but zero contracting/outsourcing/privatisation in the natural monopolies plus healthcare/education. in some respects Labour are too right for me, but I am not a socialist.



MakeAmazing on 09 April 2013

According to the news yesterday, it was Thatcher that started the devolution process. It started with giving NI more direct power, yes this might not have been the big bells and whistles of the Good Friday Agreement, but to believe that things just started with that process is a little misguided.

There was a culture of "making money" in the 80's but it's no different to the last few years when labour were in government (and continued to spend spend spend and were also on watch when the banks messed up) ... different people in charge, same issues.

I am not a big fan of the current conservative government, but seriously there are *ALOT* of scroungers out there... and i am glad they are trying to sort that out.

I just wish they would bring back national service or be harder on those who have never or will not work. If you were to lose your job today, I can guarantee the job centre people will be harder on you, than people who are out of work for 5-10 years. Just because they feel they cannot get them to work regardless of what they do. I remember an article on the BBC site where a guy was getting Hundreds of pounds a week for him and his wife, which they needed for essentials such as 16 cans of beer/fags and mobile phone. The guy worked as a programmer in education software but since he had lost his job 10 years before, he still was only looking for work in that market. There lies in the problem, people who dont want to work and make excuses to continue not doing that. Its not right that unemployed people can do nothing for more than middle class people can actually earn...

Anyway i dont like politic conversations on the whole, but really its not the point, Thatcher is dead, and people who are happy about that, are sick idiots.



MakeAmazing on 09 April 2013
Soleron said:

Well I dislike everything she did except the coal mine closures. Having a competitive business be state run was inefficient.

Selling off natural monopolies like rail, power and water was stupid. Now we just have overcharging and undermaintenance, and yet the government still covers the losses of the rail franchises when they fail. Worst of both worlds.

Selling off council houses led to the shortage of social housing and did nothing to solve the general housing undersupply.

Regressive taxes were obviously bad.

Ambivalent about her stance on Europe, because I think free trade is good but political unity with disparate cultures and economies is bad.

There's no party I can vote for that will give me capitalism in most businesses but zero contracting/outsourcing/privatisation in the natural monopolies plus healthcare/education. in some respects Labour are too right for me, but I am not a socialist.

I dont agree with selling power/water, but actually most of these monopolies were totally inefficient. Thats governement for you... the bigger the system the more money/red tape thats required. So making them private companies and making competition cuts costs and improves systems on the whole.

The Coal mines, well lets be honest they are totally a waste of money. We can buy coal and get it shipped from Australia than digging up our own coal. When something is that inefficient there is no point keeping it going. Open coal mines are the most efficient, but we dont have the room over here to do that. Personally i would rather us waste that money we would spend on getting coal out of the ground on solar panels on every house.

Selling council houses actually helped house hold income and gave people more spending money - so it helped the economy, the *BIG* problem was that no one (conservatives or labour after) had considered building any more. So a bubble was created. The actual idea of people owning their own houses was fine, it was the rest of it that was the problem. In fact no goverment since the 80's has still fixed the housing issue... were still not building them in anywhere near high enough numbers.