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Forums - Politics Discussion - Farewell Democracy?

BaldrSkies said:
Metal Gear Solid 4 is real.

Actually if Hugo Chavez was right, he was murdered by the US Goverment so the US may already have developed FoxDie, just that instead of causing a heart attack it causes cancer.



Nintendo is selling their IPs to Microsoft and this is true because:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=221391&page=1

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the2real4mafol said:

That's not the problem here. The problem is that these corporations will have political power to do what they like really. We people vote for government, they pass the laws and we follow them. But with this law, it seems corporations would be exempt and have some power over the state to enforce what it wants at the cost of everything else and guess what? They are non elected bodies and so shouldn't have such power, it's just wrong. Also, they are not transparent in the slightest. Thus, farewell democracy. 

"These provisions elevate corporations to the level of nation states and allow them to sue governments over nearly any law or policy which reduces their future profits"- you may have missed this sentence, but this shows it is not as simple as you thought. It is a scary though.

 "The dirty little secret about [the negotiation] is that it is not mainly about trade, but rather would target for elimination the strongest consumer, health, safety, privacy, environmental and other public interest policies on either side of the Atlantic"- here is another exempt to make it perfectly clear. 

Again, I don't get it. Are you saying that at present in the EU only a nation state can sue another nation state over a law? No individual can challenge a law? That seems... dumb. And untrue. I don't believe even the EU is that warped.

And do you really believe a court would ever say that BP doesn't have to clean up the mess BP made because doing so will reduce BP's profit? Really really?



badgenome said:
the2real4mafol said:

That's not the problem here. The problem is that these corporations will have political power to do what they like really. We people vote for government, they pass the laws and we follow them. But with this law, it seems corporations would be exempt and have some power over the state to enforce what it wants at the cost of everything else and guess what? They are non elected bodies and so shouldn't have such power, it's just wrong. Also, they are not transparent in the slightest. Thus, farewell democracy. 

"These provisions elevate corporations to the level of nation states and allow them to sue governments over nearly any law or policy which reduces their future profits"- you may have missed this sentence, but this shows it is not as simple as you thought. It is a scary though.

 "The dirty little secret about [the negotiation] is that it is not mainly about trade, but rather would target for elimination the strongest consumer, health, safety, privacy, environmental and other public interest policies on either side of the Atlantic"- here is another exempt to make it perfectly clear. 

Again, I don't get it. Are you saying that at present in the EU only a nation state can sue another nation state over a law? No individual can challenge a law? That seems... dumb. And untrue. I don't believe even the EU is that warped.

And do you really believe a court would ever say that BP doesn't have to clean up the mess BP made because doing so will reduce BP's profit? Really really?

Of course, people can sue each other and companies. But, i never said corporations can't sue a government but why would they? If they have a decent business environment, like in most countries then what's the issue with following health and safety, privacy, environmental and worker regulations etc and paying your taxes on time. They make profit anyway as they pay literally pennies to some poor locals in the developing world. Anyway, most governments are reasonable and wouldn't doing anything that would make a corporation want to sue them (the company wouldn't go there to start with)

As for BP, that's what this law sounds like because corporations would have that extra power to do what they like. They have to be accountable like everyone else.



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

the2real4mafol said:

Of course, people can sue each other and companies. But, i never said corporations can't sue a government but why would they? If they have a decent business environment, like in most countries then what's the issue with following health and safety, privacy, environmental and worker regulations etc and paying your taxes on time. They make profit anyway as they pay literally pennies to some poor locals in the developing world. Anyway, most governments are reasonable and wouldn't doing anything that would make a corporation want to sue them (the company wouldn't go there to start with)

As for BP, that's what this law sounds like because corporations would have that extra power to do what they like. They have to be accountable like everyone else.

If they are such reasonable regulations, what is the problem with defending them in court?

I'm really at a loss as to why all this angst about democracy being subverted, as if the EU itself hasn't done that enough already (see: the constitution ratification clusterfuck). Is it that a corporation can challenge a national law in an EU court?



This is terrible on so many levels. Obama is obviously just a puppet, there are probably other interests driving this.



I LOVE ICELAND!

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badgenome said:
the2real4mafol said:

Of course, people can sue each other and companies. But, i never said corporations can't sue a government but why would they? If they have a decent business environment, like in most countries then what's the issue with following health and safety, privacy, environmental and worker regulations etc and paying your taxes on time. They make profit anyway as they pay literally pennies to some poor locals in the developing world. Anyway, most governments are reasonable and wouldn't doing anything that would make a corporation want to sue them (the company wouldn't go there to start with)

As for BP, that's what this law sounds like because corporations would have that extra power to do what they like. They have to be accountable like everyone else.

If they are such reasonable regulations, what is the problem with defending them in court?

I'm really at a loss as to why all this angst about democracy being subverted, as if the EU itself hasn't done that enough already (see: the constitution ratification clusterfuck). Is it that a corporation can challenge a national law in an EU court?

But we elect apart of the EU, it's parliament (the commission and the council aren't directly elected). While, corporations are unelected in anyway. But in both cases, this is a big issue with sovereignity in particular. Anyway, but of course corporations would challenge regulations, it costs them money!

But with this law, it seems corporations would not only challenge a law but use their power to try to abolish it if they can, as removing regulations is in their interests.



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

the2real4mafol said:

But we elect apart of the EU, it's parliament (the commission and the council aren't directly elected). While, corporations are unelected in anyway. But in both cases, this is a big issue with sovereignity in particular. Anyway, but of course corporations would challenge regulations, it costs them money!

But with this law, it seems corporations would not only challenge a law but use their power to try to abolish it if they can, as removing regulations is in their interests.

Well, the whole point of challenging a law is to have it abolished, so... those would seem to be the same things.

Can you please be very explicit, because I'm still not sure I understand. Can corporations not challenge a law right now? Can an individual challenge a law right now? Are we talking about challenging a single nation's law in an EU court? If so, why would it be less democratic for an unelected corporation to invalidate a nation's law than for another, equally unelected (by that country, at least) foreign government to have that nation's law invalidated?



That sucks and it just proves we're in the era of corporate republics as opposed to democratic republics.

On both the US and Europe on the last decades we've witnessed the slow undoing of democracy, I'm afraid.



 

 

 

 

 

this might help. right now you are thinking of corporations as companies, right? well the truth is that corporations are actually another form of collectivist government. But instead of governing countrie corporation seize control of resources. for example The Monsanto company controls 81% of americas corn, 91% of the Soy beans, and 95% of the canola. They have done all of this by ignoring enviromental regulations, using patent laws and GMO's to steal farmers crops. thye get away with this because they have "former" employees controlling the FDA, EPA and USDA even a member of the courts (who was one of the deciding votes in the Monsanto Protection act) is a former Monsanto lawyer. Right now the EU has a number of heavy regulations protecting their consumers and labor from the practices of Monsanto. Even ome smaller countries have taken a stand against Monsanto,But if Monsanto can sue to remove any restrictions against them then more countries will end up like india where 4,000 farmers commited suicide after becoming in debt to Monsanto.



Check the link below. (note to Admins: it's not really porn please don't ban me!)

 

This is why I laugh whenever someone calls Obama a "socialist." If anything, he's closer to fascist. Actions like this prove it, as well as the "Monsanto Protection Act."