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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Keiji Inafune says Japanese developers need to learn from overseas devs

LilChicken22 said:
He's only saying that because he knows we want to hear that and earn our respect. I don't want to play interactive movies and glitchfests every day. Japanese games are the only games I play (Dark Souls, Bayonetta, Ni no Kuni, Monster Hunter, Nintendo games). His lastest game Soul Sacrifice doesn't look like any western title out there. It looks like a good polished game focussed on gameplay and I would like to play it more than any western title I can think of. Unfortunately I'm not going to buy a PSVita.

I agree on the technical finess of Japanese titles. After all, I'm Asian too and very meticulous in my work.

However, in terms of storytelling, you are missing out if you avoid western titles. And I'm not talking about those that simply want to imitate film (such as David Cage). There are those that understand that games and films are very different mediums. For example, Jonathan Blow makes this observation:

"One reason may be that the video-game form is incompatible with traditional concepts of narrative. Stories are essentially about time passing and narrative progression. Games are about challenge, which frustrates the passing of time and impedes narrative progression. The story force wants to go forward and the “friction force” of challenge tries to hold story back. This is the conflict at heart of the narrative game, one that game designers have thus far imperfectly addressed by making story the reward of a successfully met challenge."

So the exploration of how to narrate better in games is best done when developers think of ways to let story flow naturally along with gameplay, while not hindering player progress, but to create freedom of setting their own pace in the experience. Ken Levine's BioShock series is, of course, an excellent example of the immersion that comes from implementing this philosophy.

Now, you may not care about all this. Maybe you just play games to have fun, kick back after a long day, enjoy some refined gameplay wrapped in a straight-forward story that you don't need to think much about. And that's fine too. You actually don't require gaming to grow, because they are already doing what you want them to do for ages now. Nintendo's got all the proven formula, indeed. All that's left for progression is graphics - and if the gameplay ain't broken, then there's no need to change that too.

But for those of us seeing that our beloved medium has got a long way to go in some areas, this discussion is much needed. Inafune has some understanding of the problem, but I don't think he's really the type to be able to lead by example. Meanwhile, a growing portion of western developers continue to break new ground, and we can only hope that the Japanese industry can figure it out one day.

P.S. I just finished Ni No Kuni. I'm not gonna compare it to western titles, but all I can say for the story is that it's nowhere near as good Studio Ghibli's animations. They can definitely do better. The art is beautiful, but the gameplay isn't that good as well. But technically there were no bugs, as expected of a Japanese game.



My website: Precocious Ragamuffin

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KylieDog said:
ktay95 said:
lol, i never listen to Inafune. seriously would prefer diversity than a world full of #MERICA

Yeah we need billions more JRPGs with anime characters that could all be clones, likely school age or there abouts.  So diverse.

Hehe yeah... On the whole, the western industry has more variety now, especially with its thriving independent developments.

Seriously, a lot of the time you feel that the Japanese creators aren't even trying to innovate anymore.



My website: Precocious Ragamuffin

Esquoret said:
LilChicken22 said:
He's only saying that because he knows we want to hear that and earn our respect. I don't want to play interactive movies and glitchfests every day. Japanese games are the only games I play (Dark Souls, Bayonetta, Ni no Kuni, Monster Hunter, Nintendo games). His lastest game Soul Sacrifice doesn't look like any western title out there. It looks like a good polished game focussed on gameplay and I would like to play it more than any western title I can think of. Unfortunately I'm not going to buy a PSVita.

I agree on the technical finess of Japanese titles. After all, I'm Asian too and very meticulous in my work.

However, in terms of storytelling, you are missing out if you avoid western titles. And I'm not talking about those that simply want to imitate film (such as David Cage). There are those that understand that games and films are very different mediums. For example, Jonathan Blow makes this observation:

"One reason may be that the video-game form is incompatible with traditional concepts of narrative. Stories are essentially about time passing and narrative progression. Games are about challenge, which frustrates the passing of time and impedes narrative progression. The story force wants to go forward and the “friction force” of challenge tries to hold story back. This is the conflict at heart of the narrative game, one that game designers have thus far imperfectly addressed by making story the reward of a successfully met challenge."

So the exploration of how to narrate better in games is best done when developers think of ways to let story flow naturally along with gameplay, while not hindering player progress, but to create freedom of setting their own pace in the experience. Ken Levine's BioShock series is, of course, an excellent example of the immersion that comes from implementing this philosophy.

Now, you may not care about all this. Maybe you just play games to have fun, kick back after a long day, enjoy some refined gameplay wrapped in a straight-forward story that you don't need to think much about. And that's fine too. You actually don't require gaming to grow, because they are already doing what you want them to do for ages now. Nintendo's got all the proven formula, indeed. All that's left for progression is graphics - and if the gameplay ain't broken, then there's no need to change that too.

But for those of us seeing that our beloved medium has got a long way to go in some areas, this discussion is much needed. Inafune has some understanding of the problem, but I don't think he's really the type to be able to lead by example. Meanwhile, a growing portion of western developers continue to break new ground, and we can only hope that the Japanese industry can figure it out one day.

P.S. I just finished Ni No Kuni. I'm not gonna compare it to western titles, but all I can say for the story is that it's nowhere near as good Studio Ghibli's animations. They can definitely do better. The art is beautiful, but the gameplay isn't that good as well. But technically there were no bugs, as expected of a Japanese game.


Johnathan Blow needs to pay attention to Bioware and Naughty Dog whom are story heavy gaming companies. One is into story driven RPG's and the other is into story driven action adventure and both with their own style of implementing it. Not everyone needs to be a david cage but we're glad he's here as he gives an experience more akin to tell tale games. Games like Uncharted are the types of games make fans beg for episodic content because after the episode and story is complete you just want to see what trouble Natahn runs into next.



S.T.A.G.E. said:
Esquoret said:
LilChicken22 said:
He's only saying that because he knows we want to hear that and earn our respect. I don't want to play interactive movies and glitchfests every day. Japanese games are the only games I play (Dark Souls, Bayonetta, Ni no Kuni, Monster Hunter, Nintendo games). His lastest game Soul Sacrifice doesn't look like any western title out there. It looks like a good polished game focussed on gameplay and I would like to play it more than any western title I can think of. Unfortunately I'm not going to buy a PSVita.

I agree on the technical finess of Japanese titles. After all, I'm Asian too and very meticulous in my work.

However, in terms of storytelling, you are missing out if you avoid western titles. And I'm not talking about those that simply want to imitate film (such as David Cage). There are those that understand that games and films are very different mediums. For example, Jonathan Blow makes this observation:

"One reason may be that the video-game form is incompatible with traditional concepts of narrative. Stories are essentially about time passing and narrative progression. Games are about challenge, which frustrates the passing of time and impedes narrative progression. The story force wants to go forward and the “friction force” of challenge tries to hold story back. This is the conflict at heart of the narrative game, one that game designers have thus far imperfectly addressed by making story the reward of a successfully met challenge."

So the exploration of how to narrate better in games is best done when developers think of ways to let story flow naturally along with gameplay, while not hindering player progress, but to create freedom of setting their own pace in the experience. Ken Levine's BioShock series is, of course, an excellent example of the immersion that comes from implementing this philosophy.

Now, you may not care about all this. Maybe you just play games to have fun, kick back after a long day, enjoy some refined gameplay wrapped in a straight-forward story that you don't need to think much about. And that's fine too. You actually don't require gaming to grow, because they are already doing what you want them to do for ages now. Nintendo's got all the proven formula, indeed. All that's left for progression is graphics - and if the gameplay ain't broken, then there's no need to change that too.

But for those of us seeing that our beloved medium has got a long way to go in some areas, this discussion is much needed. Inafune has some understanding of the problem, but I don't think he's really the type to be able to lead by example. Meanwhile, a growing portion of western developers continue to break new ground, and we can only hope that the Japanese industry can figure it out one day.

P.S. I just finished Ni No Kuni. I'm not gonna compare it to western titles, but all I can say for the story is that it's nowhere near as good Studio Ghibli's animations. They can definitely do better. The art is beautiful, but the gameplay isn't that good as well. But technically there were no bugs, as expected of a Japanese game.

Johnathan Blow needs to pay attention to Bioware and Naughty Dog whom are story heavy gaming companies. One is into story driven RPG's and the other is into story driven action adventure and both with their own style of implementing it. Not everyone needs to be a david cage but we're glad he's here as he gives an experience more akin to tell tale games. Games like Uncharted are the types of games make fans beg for episodic content because after the episode and story is complete you just want to see what trouble Natahn runs into next.

I think he is definitely aware of these story-drive AAA titles. But he chooses to not go about things their way.

His point is true - in both Mass Effect and Uncharted, story exposition and combat alternates. The player receives story elements and cannot continue until they're absorbed. Then combat is engaged and the player cannot continue until he overcomes the challenge. He's not saying story and gameplay cannot co-exist, but just describing how they're delivered, and how they might potentially hinder one another. (Exception of Mass Effect's sections of dialogue choices.)

I emphasise that he says "video-game form is incompatible with traditional concepts of narrative". Traditional, meaning those from, for example, books or films. He's just encouraging gamemakers to discover a unique concept of delivering narrative, and that's good.

I'm not saying that I did not enjoy Mass Effect or Uncharted - very much loved them. But at the same time the "friction" Blow mentioned is true. So it's interesting to see how the creative minds can explore new ground in combining narrative and gameplay.

Heavy Rain, on the other hand, dealt with the problem by removing the "game over" screen. See, traditional gaming would only let you proceed continue if you pass the challenge, which hinders story progression if you suck. But in Heavy Rain, even if you fail, the story continues, albeit to a darker conclusion. And by the way, though David Cage does seem to look to movies very often, his "interactive drama" is still very different from a film fundamentally.



My website: Precocious Ragamuffin

ktay95 said:
lol, i never listen to Inafune. seriously would prefer diversity than a world full of #MERICA

Me too . Japanese games are so original with their character-design . No need for graphics like Uncharted ,Battlefield , etc...  It would give a too serious and dark
background.

 

I also like "colored" background like NIHON FALCOM games  ->  Ys , Legend of Heroes :Trails in the Sky  (Eiyuu Densetsu : Sora no kiseki ).

 

I'm waiting for the second chapter of Trails in the sky  and  Ys : Memories of Celceta will be released on September 2013 in USA.

 

UP:  Look at the script :p 



You can visit this blog for Zero no Kiseki and Sen no Kiseki guide

http://wajinokiseki.blogspot.be/

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Will this guy ever shut the fuck up? It's the exact same story with Western devs. This guy is delusional.




Gunotak said:
ktay95 said:
lol, i never listen to Inafune. seriously would prefer diversity than a world full of #MERICA

Me too . Japanese games are so original with their character-design . No need for graphics like Uncharted ,Battlefield , etc...  It would give a too serious and dark
background.

 

I also like "colored" background like NIHON FALCOM games  ->  Ys , Legend of Heroes :Trails in the Sky  (Eiyuu Densetsu : Sora no kiseki ).

 

I'm waiting for the second chapter of Trails in the sky  and  Ys : Memories of Celceta will be released on September 2013 in USA.

 

UP:  Look at the script :p 

 

Your kidding right?



Nsanity said:
Gunotak said:
ktay95 said:
lol, i never listen to Inafune. seriously would prefer diversity than a world full of #MERICA

Me too . Japanese games are so original with their character-design . No need for graphics like Uncharted ,Battlefield , etc...  It would give a too serious and dark
background.

 

I also like "colored" background like NIHON FALCOM games  ->  Ys , Legend of Heroes :Trails in the Sky  (Eiyuu Densetsu : Sora no kiseki ).

 

I'm waiting for the second chapter of Trails in the sky  and  Ys : Memories of Celceta will be released on September 2013 in USA.

 

UP:  Look at the script :p 

Your kidding right?

Sadly not  :( . And Sen no Kiseki is like 4 novels !

 

 So we have to wait for the second chapter. I think we have to not giving up . The most J-RPG players we can attract and this series has a chance to become famous .

 

Later I will post a  file about this serie at jeuxvideo.com .   (Sorry about my English speaking)



You can visit this blog for Zero no Kiseki and Sen no Kiseki guide

http://wajinokiseki.blogspot.be/

Esquoret said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Esquoret said:
LilChicken22 said:
He's only saying that because he knows we want to hear that and earn our respect. I don't want to play interactive movies and glitchfests every day. Japanese games are the only games I play (Dark Souls, Bayonetta, Ni no Kuni, Monster Hunter, Nintendo games). His lastest game Soul Sacrifice doesn't look like any western title out there. It looks like a good polished game focussed on gameplay and I would like to play it more than any western title I can think of. Unfortunately I'm not going to buy a PSVita.

I agree on the technical finess of Japanese titles. After all, I'm Asian too and very meticulous in my work.

However, in terms of storytelling, you are missing out if you avoid western titles. And I'm not talking about those that simply want to imitate film (such as David Cage). There are those that understand that games and films are very different mediums. For example, Jonathan Blow makes this observation:

"One reason may be that the video-game form is incompatible with traditional concepts of narrative. Stories are essentially about time passing and narrative progression. Games are about challenge, which frustrates the passing of time and impedes narrative progression. The story force wants to go forward and the “friction force” of challenge tries to hold story back. This is the conflict at heart of the narrative game, one that game designers have thus far imperfectly addressed by making story the reward of a successfully met challenge."

So the exploration of how to narrate better in games is best done when developers think of ways to let story flow naturally along with gameplay, while not hindering player progress, but to create freedom of setting their own pace in the experience. Ken Levine's BioShock series is, of course, an excellent example of the immersion that comes from implementing this philosophy.

Now, you may not care about all this. Maybe you just play games to have fun, kick back after a long day, enjoy some refined gameplay wrapped in a straight-forward story that you don't need to think much about. And that's fine too. You actually don't require gaming to grow, because they are already doing what you want them to do for ages now. Nintendo's got all the proven formula, indeed. All that's left for progression is graphics - and if the gameplay ain't broken, then there's no need to change that too.

But for those of us seeing that our beloved medium has got a long way to go in some areas, this discussion is much needed. Inafune has some understanding of the problem, but I don't think he's really the type to be able to lead by example. Meanwhile, a growing portion of western developers continue to break new ground, and we can only hope that the Japanese industry can figure it out one day.

P.S. I just finished Ni No Kuni. I'm not gonna compare it to western titles, but all I can say for the story is that it's nowhere near as good Studio Ghibli's animations. They can definitely do better. The art is beautiful, but the gameplay isn't that good as well. But technically there were no bugs, as expected of a Japanese game.

Johnathan Blow needs to pay attention to Bioware and Naughty Dog whom are story heavy gaming companies. One is into story driven RPG's and the other is into story driven action adventure and both with their own style of implementing it. Not everyone needs to be a david cage but we're glad he's here as he gives an experience more akin to tell tale games. Games like Uncharted are the types of games make fans beg for episodic content because after the episode and story is complete you just want to see what trouble Natahn runs into next.

I think he is definitely aware of these story-drive AAA titles. But he chooses to not go about things their way.

His point is true - in both Mass Effect and Uncharted, story exposition and combat alternates. The player receives story elements and cannot continue until they're absorbed. Then combat is engaged and the player cannot continue until he overcomes the challenge. He's not saying story and gameplay cannot co-exist, but just describing how they're delivered, and how they might potentially hinder one another. (Exception of Mass Effect's sections of dialogue choices.)

I emphasise that he says "video-game form is incompatible with traditional concepts of narrative". Traditional, meaning those from, for example, books or films. He's just encouraging gamemakers to discover a unique concept of delivering narrative, and that's good.

I'm not saying that I did not enjoy Mass Effect or Uncharted - very much loved them. But at the same time the "friction" Blow mentioned is true. So it's interesting to see how the creative minds can explore new ground in combining narrative and gameplay.

Heavy Rain, on the other hand, dealt with the problem by removing the "game over" screen. See, traditional gaming would only let you proceed continue if you pass the challenge, which hinders story progression if you suck. But in Heavy Rain, even if you fail, the story continues, albeit to a darker conclusion. And by the way, though David Cage does seem to look to movies very often, his "interactive drama" is still very different from a film fundamentally.


Traditional concepts of narrative have been changing people have known about them and its gone through vast changes over the past sixteen years starting with Metal Gear Solid. Its going to the point where in this coming gen emotions will be shown that have never seen, story archs and choices will be larger and will be able to affect them in the near future (or in other games) how is it compatible in weaving a story if it creates a personal attachment to each player. The Witcher does this (if you're using the PC version though). You don't even have to say anything, because actions can change things in the coming gen. If you set the action to weave into the story it will become the story, but allow you to make the decisions on a wild ride. This is the future of Action Adventure and has been what RPG's have been doing all gen.



Esquoret said:
LilChicken22 said:
He's only saying that because he knows we want to hear that and earn our respect. I don't want to play interactive movies and glitchfests every day. Japanese games are the only games I play (Dark Souls, Bayonetta, Ni no Kuni, Monster Hunter, Nintendo games). His lastest game Soul Sacrifice doesn't look like any western title out there. It looks like a good polished game focussed on gameplay and I would like to play it more than any western title I can think of. Unfortunately I'm not going to buy a PSVita.

I agree on the technical finess of Japanese titles. After all, I'm Asian too and very meticulous in my work.

However, in terms of storytelling, you are missing out if you avoid western titles. And I'm not talking about those that simply want to imitate film (such as David Cage). There are those that understand that games and films are very different mediums. For example, Jonathan Blow makes this observation:

My biggest problem with most Western is the storytelling.

All of the big titles have very bad to mediorce stories.



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And snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
Then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
To dance with Jak o' the Shadows."

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