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Microsoft announces 10.4 mil by December 31st

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Monty said: ChrisClement said: Where is this "well known" information about Sony's sold/shipped/sitting in warehouse consoles coming from? I'm not inclined to just adopt anything Microsoft says about it's competitor's accounting practices. Sony specifically states "shipped" when it talks about it's sales numbers, just like Microsoft. That news (the interview with Robbie Bach) was reported on just about every games news site on the web a few weeks back (feel free to Google it). Now, I know that Sony appears to be pretty incompetent as of late, but if you believe for a minute that an MS executive told a massive fib about Sony - that was reported damn near everywhere - and Sony just sat on their thumbs and didn't correct it, then that means you'd have to believe Sony to be run by a group of retarded monkeys. On second thought, that is highly possible. I may go with your "Sony is a bunch of retarded monkeys" theory when all is said and done...
Just admit that you don't know anything about accounting. I'll give you a free lesson: Sony and MSFT count shipped units in exactly the same way, because if they not - they will go to the court for tax fraud. And stop listening to what people say, even if it's some funny executive. Just look at the numbers.



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psorcerer said: Monty said: ChrisClement said: Where is this "well known" information about Sony's sold/shipped/sitting in warehouse consoles coming from? I'm not inclined to just adopt anything Microsoft says about it's competitor's accounting practices. Sony specifically states "shipped" when it talks about it's sales numbers, just like Microsoft. That news (the interview with Robbie Bach) was reported on just about every games news site on the web a few weeks back (feel free to Google it). Now, I know that Sony appears to be pretty incompetent as of late, but if you believe for a minute that an MS executive told a massive fib about Sony - that was reported damn near everywhere - and Sony just sat on their thumbs and didn't correct it, then that means you'd have to believe Sony to be run by a group of retarded monkeys. On second thought, that is highly possible. I may go with your "Sony is a bunch of retarded monkeys" theory when all is said and done... Just admit that you don't know anything about accounting. I'll give you a free lesson: Sony and MSFT count shipped units in exactly the same way, because if they not - they will go to the court for tax fraud. And stop listening to what people say, even if it's some funny executive. Just look at the numbers.
I'm confused as to how you think a press release is an official tax document? If Sony releases to the press that they sold 110 million PS2's, in your book that is an official tax document? If MS says at CES that they sold 10.4 million Xbox 360's, that's something that constitutes tax fraud if they don't do have the exact same standard as Sony? Your logic makes absolutely no sense!



The press releases are based on the annual reports which present all the data, most of it for shareholders and tax purposes. Monty I think the problem is that you keep arguing the same point despite 20-30 people proving you wrong, as though you think you know more than them and they are all stupid. This kind of attitude winds people up and makes them hostile towards you. A debate is always a good thing but you have been proven wrong a number of times already, keep adjusting your argument and finding even more obscure 'sources' to keep it going. 10.4m shipped, 8.3m sold through



Wii_gamer said: The press releases are based on the annual reports which present all the data, most of it for shareholders and tax purposes. Monty I think the problem is that you keep arguing the same point despite 20-30 people proving you wrong, as though you think you know more than them and they are all stupid. This kind of attitude winds people up and makes them hostile towards you. A debate is always a good thing but you have been proven wrong a number of times already, keep adjusting your argument and finding even more obscure 'sources' to keep it going. 10.4m shipped, 8.3m sold through
When was I proven wrong? Was it the time 20-30 people here actually believed that NPD data was for all of NA? Was it the time where I showed how NPD data and 10% of NA added up to nearly a half a million more than what vgcharts is showing? Was it the time where everybody said it was a half a million off in NA alone simply because the stats were out of date on vgcharts, and then you told me they are up to date.. meaning by NPD figures and the 10% figure alone, this site is THAT far off??? Was it the time where somebody actually believed that Japan was a Continent? Was it the time where they believed a press statement was a tax document and that all console makers have to have the same standard to release press statements? Was it the time where somebody believed that you could add US data, Japan data, and Europe and say that was WW data? Yes... clearly I have been proven wrong so many times.



One other thing Wii_gamer... you accuse me of using obscure sources, but you provide none. Would you care to show me where you come up with the 8.3 number you just cited? I'd specifically like to know where you get Canada, Mexico, European, and data for Asia (outside of Japan)? Please show me where you get the 10% number for the rest of NA. So, far you haven't even posted an obscure source for your data. The only thing you say is to "trust you". What would you say to me if that was MY argument?



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Monty said: Was it the time where they believed a press statement was a tax document and that all console makers have to have the same standard to release press statements?
Please, just point out where I said that press statement = tax document?



psorcerer said: Just admit that you don't know anything about accounting. I'll give you a free lesson: Sony and MSFT count shipped units in exactly the same way, because if they not - they will go to the court for tax fraud. And stop listening to what people say, even if it's some funny executive. Just look at the numbers.
It has nothing to do with accountency, it's about giving numbers at different level of the production/storage/selling chain. It's purely about marketing, and indeed, you can either use figures of consoles sold just when they exit production chain (and still have to be delivered to sotck before being dispatched to retailers) or at the moment their are dispatched. Damn, you could even be including number of pre-paid but not yet made units, if the practive was usual in this market (which is not, unlike the exotic car market for instance). Don't know if MS is right about Sony, but indeed, it would be strange that Sony do not react if it was a lie, especially given the "marketing war" going on.



Monty said: When was I proven wrong? Was it the time 20-30 people here actually believed that NPD data was for all of NA? Was it the time where I showed how NPD data and 10% of NA added up to nearly a half a million more than what vgcharts is showing? Was it the time where everybody said it was a half a million off in NA alone simply because the stats were out of date on vgcharts, and then you told me they are up to date.. meaning by NPD figures and the 10% figure alone, this site is THAT far off??? Was it the time where somebody actually believed that Japan was a Continent? Was it the time where they believed a press statement was a tax document and that all console makers have to have the same standard to release press statements? Was it the time where somebody believed that you could add US data, Japan data, and Europe and say that was WW data? Yes... clearly I have been proven wrong so many times.
Right, let's clear all this up once and for all!! NPD does track Canada as well. Data which is leaked and data which you cite is from NPD but just represents the USA. There is NPD data for Canada and you can get it and as a clue for you it is around 10% of the US data. 'Mexico' has never been a gaming region and sales there will be tiny if not zero - most mexicans will import from USA as you have been told. NPD data at the end of November was 3.4 million. Agreed? It has been posted a number of times. Figures for December range from 1.2m to 1.4m depending on the source - even if you take the higher value of 1.4m you get 4.8m at the end of December in the USA. Add your roughly 10% (the actual figure for Canada will be less) and you get 5.3m as a maximum. Add the rest of the world as we have also extrapolated from data we have (and you seem to have no problem with these figures) and you get to 8.3 million. Over and again this same process has been carried out and yet every time you still can't accept it. First you suggest that because Canada + Mexico have a population approaching the US that it's not unreasonable for 1.5m (your original estimate) to have been sold there!! Ok by the same logic we should expect 10m in India and 12m in China I guess? Then when that flaw was spotted you compared Microsoft's 900k shipped in December to the 600k sold in USA and take the difference as representing Canada. This shipped vs sold is a criminal mistake that a lot of people make. You're not accounting for copies that have been manufactured but not shipped (which MS DO count), shipped but not sold and the exact period that the figures cover. You also have to remember that MS will be doing all they can (as with Nintendo and Sony) to make the numbers as high as possible for good PR. 900k doesn't mean 900,000, it could be as low as 850,000 or whatever rounded up. The fact is that the figure for Canada was at launch and has continued to be around 10% max (from 8-10% depending on the month) of the US figure. Now having conceded this, you keep quoting Microsoft's 10.4m and just use an argument that they must have sold close to this to support your claims. You have also dropped from saying the figure should be 10m to something like 8.7m so you're almost there now Japan is indeed not a continent, press pr is usually bullish but does have to represent something because it is repeated in their financial data which goes to shareholders / tax etc, and you definitely CANNOT add up US + Japan + Europe to get worldwide figures. This is a mistake a lot of people make and we do not here on vgcharts. All data is carefully researched and adjusted / extrapolated accordingly. At the same time though, you cannot take pr statements from a company who had stated they would ship 10m by the end of 2006 and use their shipped (and maximised as much as possible) figure as being the actual amount sold.



Monty said: broshnat said: Simple answer is because nothing like 10.4 million units have been sold, as many have stated there are a huge amount of units sitting in warehouses and in shops - same with PSP. VG Charts tracks sales not shipped numbers generally, as in some cases such as this there can be a large discrepancy between the two... It is well known that MS reports "sold" as "sold to retailer", whereas Sony reports "shipped" as a unit that simply has left the assembly line. The difference is that the MS total does not inlcude those units just sitting in a warehouse unsold to retailers, whereas Sony's could. Their "sold" number is units that are in the consumer's hand or sitting on the store shelf. Here's how Robbie Bach phrased it: "Robbie Bach on how they count things: Q: It’s 10 million shipped, right? A: Yeah. In our case, it’s reasonably close to sold through. To make sure we’re clear, Sony does shipped from factory. We don’t. Our shipped means it has left a distribution warehouse in Memphis to a retailer. There is a big lag of six week to eight-week lag between what we called shipped and what Sony calls shipped. That’s the way we do the accounting."
MSN stated differently than him. I would tend to believe him, but then again can you believe anyone from M$, Sony, or Nintendo? They lie just like anyone else. The article on MSN stated "shipped" when M$ predicted 10 million by end of 2006 indicated shipped from factory. Regardless, if you've been to a BB, CC, Ebgames, etc. This Christmas (or year for that matter) it's obvious that units "in stores" are not necessarily close to sold. Especially at my local BB where there are literally 2 slabs of more than 100 360 consoles, and more in the back. Now that is anecdotal, maybe not true everywhere. But if you do the math from NPD, Japan, and Europe it's obvious there is a desparity between what is being reported as "sold" and in end users hands. And despite what some people seem to think. Sold to a retailer is just a bragging number. (Shipped to the retailer means they already bought it, so it's the same difference with about 2 weeks lag time for numbers). Sold to retailer doesn't mean a thing when it comes to actual success. As I said, the hardware is not what generates profits, it's software, and now online services too (such as movies, or XBL cards you buy at the store). So whether or not it is in the end users hands matters a lot, if it's just sitting on a shelf then it's not making them money period. When the end of march rolls around, and Sony comes out and claims they have shipped 6 million consoles are you going to be holding this site to same account? Meaning, some people seem so adament about correcting the 360 sales figures, but I can gaurentee you by the end of march the number on this site won't read 6 million for PS3...even if Sony says they have shipped that many.



Even if the 10.4 million number was reached by consoles 'shipped' to retailers, by your accounting of sold, that leaves some 2 million consoles unsold in inventory somewhere. I don't doubt there's inventory in the world, but that much? Is there something wrong with everyone's just in time inventory? Would retailers carry that much stock? It's not like it's not moving. We know it is moving. The number of sold as of December, I bet is 9 million something. Otherwise, we're not going to see any shipments from Microsoft in January, if there's 2 million units unsold out there.