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Forums - Gaming Discussion - UPDATED!!! People like second hand games but software companies can't handle the cost.

 

What should be done?

Nothing, just as long my ... 94 64.38%
 
Block second hand use. only internet access. 8 5.48%
 
Include code with game to... 44 30.14%
 
Total:146
Otakumegane said:
spaceguy said:
Aielyn said:
spaceguy said:
One word, Darksiders.

 

You're going to have to provide more words, because I don't know what you're meant to be arguing against with a reference to Darksiders.

spaceguy said:

You  do have some valid points but I also think I do as well.  I like different games. I get sick up the same sh-t all the time. What you are forgetting is the small developer is the one getting destroyed, they have no chance unless big companies pick them up. New companies need to form to form competition. This gen, how many software companies got bought up. So now we got the same massive company dictating whats going on. This charge would allow small developers to continue what they love and invest in the game, so we get stunning games and the developer only has to sell so many rather than what Dead Space 3 needs to sell. 5 F'ing million to break even. thats to much. If they sold a million cars of one model. GM would be shitting breaks of GOLD. Other markets have way higher profit margins.

Most small developers seem to be doing just fine. It's the THQs, the Factor 5s, and the Krome Studios. It's rather uncommon for small studios to fold - they're more likely to be bought out by publishers than fold. Many small developers also make use of digital distribution, which provides them with a lot more exposure than they otherwise would have gotten. And most of them sell their games for far less than the big studios do, too. The thing is, those small studios can sell 50k of games at $10 each and make a profit, while the huge studios sell 1.5 million $60 games and still don't break even. Like I said, the problem is in the growth of development costs, not used games.

Arguing that used game sales are the cause of the problem is like arguing that the reason why so many American banks did what they did and caused the GFC was because they weren't making enough profit from their regular activities. And as so many have already pointed out, used game sales actually bolster the industry, by providing early buyers with the money necessary to buy more games. If you were to remove used game sales, in all seriousness, you'd see a massive drop in game sales, as the biggest gamers become a lot more careful with their purchases, find themselves only being able to afford a few games a year,  and all the other gamers being restricted to just a single game because they can't afford to pay for a lot of games at full price. The used game buyer is actually subsidising the new game buyer, who then buys more new games.

In fact, the biggest impact of banning used game sales would be to create havok in the industry as only the biggest titles would sell - the rest would end up staying on store shelves, because people can't afford to take risks. CoD would sell more, while games like No More Heroes wouldn't even make a mark.

As for the idea of your "single-use code for any used game", there are multiple problems. One, how do people without internet use the code? Two, why wouldn't pirates just crack the code - I'll tell you right now, a lot more people would be happy to pirate the code than pirate an entire game. Three, why wouldn't this just strengthen gamestop, as private used game sales would become less appealing (due to not having an appropriate code to go with it)? Four, why should the single-use code be the same price irrespective of whether you're buying a $60 or a $20 game? Five, what happens in 5 years time when the codes are no longer being generated? Six, I don't have to "unlock" my car when I buy second-hand by paying the original maker, why should it be any different for a game?

To put it bluntly, it's just not workable. It would be wieldy, and not much different from, for instance, Ubisoft's DRM. It might be a little more streamlined, but it still suffers from the major drawbacks that other DRM suffers from.

On the other hand, if you make games that people want to keep, it benefits you when you sell them, because those games become rare on the used game market. The result is that the price that places like Gamestop charge for the used copy is much closer to that of the new copy, and people just opt for the new copy anyway.

Something to consider - Skyward Sword currently costs US$50 new from Gamestop. It costs US$45 used from Gamestop. Saints Row The Third for 360 currently costs US$45 new from Gamestop. It costs US$35 used from Gamestop. Why did it drop in price, when Skyward Sword is still selling at full price? Why is the used price for Saints Row The Third even lower relatively speaking? Not only do Nintendo titles hold their new prices a lot longer, but their used prices stay up near their new prices, too. Why is this? It's because people who buy Nintendo titles are holding onto them, and so the used game market doesn't get filled with copies. Nintendo doesn't have a problem with used game sales, because their games rarely end up on the used game market, until a long time after release.


Yep and if they make a game like darksiders or the like, they make nothing because second hand games. You are way to stuck on Wii. How do 3rd party support do on it again? oh yea, nothing.


You're too stuck on second-hand games. Dead space 3 won't sell because it is being reviewed badly, not because of used game sales.


Reread all my sh-t. GAMESTOP ALONE CAN TAKE OUT A SOFTWARE COMPANY. Not to see that just being blind.



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MikeRox said:
CharmedontheWB said:
Some of you out there definitely have a penchant for the dramatic. No developer had to close up shop because of second hand games. If you make a good product and have decent marketing it will sell. The second hand video game industry employs thousands of people--should they then lose their jobs? Do you only buy new cars and houses? Perhaps Toyota should not allow you to resell your car because smaller dealers have to close up shop because you rather buy a used car than a brand new one.

another flawed analogy, used cars still require maintenance and parts from the manufacturers.

Here's a list of studios which have closed since 2007:

3D Realms - 2009
7 Studios (Activision) - 2011
Backbone Vancouver
BigBig (Sony) - 2012
Bizarre Creations (Activision) - 2010/2011
Black Rock (Disney) - 2011
Blue Fang Games - 2011
Blue Tongue (THQ) - 2011
BottleRocket - 2009
Brash Entertainment - 2008
Budcat (Activision) - 2010
Castaway Entertainment - 2008
Cheyenne Mountain - 2010
Cing - 2010
Clover Studios (Capcom) - 2007
Codemasters Guildford - 2011
Cohort Studios - 2011
Concrete Games - 2008
Deep Silver Vienna - 2010
DICE Canada - 2006
EA Chicago - 2007
EA Bright Light - 2011/2012
EA Japan - 2007
Eidos Manchester - 2009
Eidos Hungary - 2010
Ensemble Studios (Microsoft) - 2008
Factor 5 - 2009
FASA (Microsoft) - 2007
Fizz Factor - 2009
Flagship Studios - 2008
Flight Plan - 2010
Frozen North Productions
FuzzyEyes - 2009
Gamelab - 2009
Game Republic - 2011
GRIN - 2009
Helixe (THQ) - 2008
Hudson Entertainment - 2011
Humannature Studio (Nexon Vancouver) - 2009
Ignition London - 2010
Ignition Florida - 2010
Incognito Entertainment (Sony) - 2009
Indie Built (Take-Two) - 2006
Iron Lore - 2008
Juice Games (THQ) - 2011
Kaos Studios (THQ) - 2011
Killaware - 2011
Killspace Entertainment - 2011
KMM Brisbane - 2011
Krome Studios (might still be operating on skeleton crew) - 2010
Kuju Manila - 2009
Kuju Chemistry - 2009
Kush Games - 2008
Locomotive Games (THQ) - 2010
Luxoflux - 2010
Mass Media (THQ) - 2008
Monte Cristo - 2010
Monumental Games - 2012
Midway Austin - 2009
Midway Newcastle - 2009
MTV Games - 2011
Multiverse - 2012
NetDevil - 2011
Ninja Studio - 2009
Outerlight - 2010
PAM Development (Take-Two) - 2008
Pandemic Australia (EA) - 2009
Pandemic LA (EA) - 2009
Paradigm Entertainment - 2008
Pi Studios - 2011
Pivotal Games (Take-Two) - 2008
Propaganda Games (Disney) - 2011
Pseudo Interactive - 2008
Rainbow Studios (THQ) - 2011
Realtime Worlds - 2010
Rebellion Derby - 2010
Red Octane - 2010
Rockstar Vienna - 2007
Sandblast Games (THQ) - 2008
SEGA San Francisco - 2010
Shaba Games (Activision) - 2009
SOE Denver - 2011
SOE Seattle - 2011
SOE Tuscon - 2011
Stormfront Studios - 2008
Straylight Studios - 2009
Team Bondi - 2011
The Code Monkeys - 2011
Titan Studios - 2009
THQ Studio Australia - 2009
THQ Digital Warrington - 2009
Transmission Games - 2009
Universomo (THQ) - 2009
Venom Games (Take Two) - 2008
Vicarious Visions California - 2007
Visceral Australia (EA) - 2011
Wolfpack Studios - 2006
Yuke's Company Of America - 2010
Zoe Mode London - 2009

Not sure there's ever been a time with so many closures. 1 bust can now kill an entire company. Even the likes of EA and Activision are often bleeding money now.


Do you mind if I use your list on the front page?



Go for it, it's one that's been doing the rounds at a few places for a few months now.

To earlier posters: You might use your trade in credit to buy new games. But each used game sale, is a purchase from somebody who obviously wanted the game, but by buying second hand, the developer and publisher never got a cent for.

Even if you were able to buy 1 extra game as a result of trading in 1 game. That doesn't increase overall sales. Factor in that when used game sales were tracked, and some games had 5+ owners at some point in their life. You can soon see why it's an issue for the industry when the developers, and I can't stress this enough, get nothing at all for those sales.

It can lead to "flops" having massive cult followings and viable audiences, but because most of them bought pre owned rather than new, nobody can see that demand is there meaning a sequel that had everyone bought new would be been a no brainer, suddenly becoming a flop which has taken the studio with it/killed that franchise.

It's not just the likes of Factor 5 etc which were impacted by this. Tim Schaffer said the same in relation to titles such as Psychonauts. They were commercial failures, have had more than enough people play them had pre owned sales contributed to the developers to make the games successful.

I agree entirely with the "it's mine I should be able to sell it" but the model collapses when GameStop give you $20 for it, and sell it for $40 meaning they actually make more money from the pre-owned sale, than they did originally buying the new product from the wholesaler. That leads to them then pushing pre-owned sales on people who would actually have otherwise bought new.

There are no two ways of looking at it, pre-owned sales hurt new sales. This in turn hurts developers. It's not a myth, it's not a fallacy, it's a fact. The fact that you have purchased it and so are entitled to sell it is a completely different argument but for some reason regularly gets thrown into this debate of do used sales hurt new. Of course they do. Should you be able to sell your game? Absolutely.

So developers/publishers and retailers need to find a way that works for everyone. The online pass is currently the ugly solution to this. Personally I think GameStop etc should just chuck a percentage of pre owned sales to the developer/publisher and in return negotiate better wholesale rates on the titles.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

spaceguy said:
Otakumegane said:
spaceguy said:
Aielyn said:
spaceguy said:
One word, Darksiders.

 

You're going to have to provide more words, because I don't know what you're meant to be arguing against with a reference to Darksiders.

spaceguy said:

You  do have some valid points but I also think I do as well.  I like different games. I get sick up the same sh-t all the time. What you are forgetting is the small developer is the one getting destroyed, they have no chance unless big companies pick them up. New companies need to form to form competition. This gen, how many software companies got bought up. So now we got the same massive company dictating whats going on. This charge would allow small developers to continue what they love and invest in the game, so we get stunning games and the developer only has to sell so many rather than what Dead Space 3 needs to sell. 5 F'ing million to break even. thats to much. If they sold a million cars of one model. GM would be shitting breaks of GOLD. Other markets have way higher profit margins.

Most small developers seem to be doing just fine. It's the THQs, the Factor 5s, and the Krome Studios. It's rather uncommon for small studios to fold - they're more likely to be bought out by publishers than fold. Many small developers also make use of digital distribution, which provides them with a lot more exposure than they otherwise would have gotten. And most of them sell their games for far less than the big studios do, too. The thing is, those small studios can sell 50k of games at $10 each and make a profit, while the huge studios sell 1.5 million $60 games and still don't break even. Like I said, the problem is in the growth of development costs, not used games.

Arguing that used game sales are the cause of the problem is like arguing that the reason why so many American banks did what they did and caused the GFC was because they weren't making enough profit from their regular activities. And as so many have already pointed out, used game sales actually bolster the industry, by providing early buyers with the money necessary to buy more games. If you were to remove used game sales, in all seriousness, you'd see a massive drop in game sales, as the biggest gamers become a lot more careful with their purchases, find themselves only being able to afford a few games a year,  and all the other gamers being restricted to just a single game because they can't afford to pay for a lot of games at full price. The used game buyer is actually subsidising the new game buyer, who then buys more new games.

In fact, the biggest impact of banning used game sales would be to create havok in the industry as only the biggest titles would sell - the rest would end up staying on store shelves, because people can't afford to take risks. CoD would sell more, while games like No More Heroes wouldn't even make a mark.

As for the idea of your "single-use code for any used game", there are multiple problems. One, how do people without internet use the code? Two, why wouldn't pirates just crack the code - I'll tell you right now, a lot more people would be happy to pirate the code than pirate an entire game. Three, why wouldn't this just strengthen gamestop, as private used game sales would become less appealing (due to not having an appropriate code to go with it)? Four, why should the single-use code be the same price irrespective of whether you're buying a $60 or a $20 game? Five, what happens in 5 years time when the codes are no longer being generated? Six, I don't have to "unlock" my car when I buy second-hand by paying the original maker, why should it be any different for a game?

To put it bluntly, it's just not workable. It would be wieldy, and not much different from, for instance, Ubisoft's DRM. It might be a little more streamlined, but it still suffers from the major drawbacks that other DRM suffers from.

On the other hand, if you make games that people want to keep, it benefits you when you sell them, because those games become rare on the used game market. The result is that the price that places like Gamestop charge for the used copy is much closer to that of the new copy, and people just opt for the new copy anyway.

Something to consider - Skyward Sword currently costs US$50 new from Gamestop. It costs US$45 used from Gamestop. Saints Row The Third for 360 currently costs US$45 new from Gamestop. It costs US$35 used from Gamestop. Why did it drop in price, when Skyward Sword is still selling at full price? Why is the used price for Saints Row The Third even lower relatively speaking? Not only do Nintendo titles hold their new prices a lot longer, but their used prices stay up near their new prices, too. Why is this? It's because people who buy Nintendo titles are holding onto them, and so the used game market doesn't get filled with copies. Nintendo doesn't have a problem with used game sales, because their games rarely end up on the used game market, until a long time after release.


Yep and if they make a game like darksiders or the like, they make nothing because second hand games. You are way to stuck on Wii. How do 3rd party support do on it again? oh yea, nothing.


You're too stuck on second-hand games. Dead space 3 won't sell because it is being reviewed badly, not because of used game sales.


Reread all my sh-t. GAMESTOP ALONE CAN TAKE OUT A SOFTWARE COMPANY. Not to see that just being blind.


Then the market will naturally correct itself and shift to amazon, e-bay and Steam in the long run. The fall of gamestop is coming, but I highly doubt that the industry will start seeing less devs close up shop because of that.

Again, gamestop is but a small part of the bigger problem. The industy is titanic and we're headed towards an iceberg, which is a complication of all the problems of dev costs, FPS saturation, the impliability of the current market (No new Ips), and used games. 

We have proof before our eyes, the mighty dinosaurs (EA,Sony,Nintendo) are starting to fall and all of a sudden we are seeing a growth in the more adaptable smaller indie markets (the mammals). The extinction is happening and it's going to hit hard.

If software companies die off, used games will only account for a small amount of the reason why, we can pin all the blame we want on used games alone but that's a small piece of the pie.

(And seriously though Dead Space 3 is going to sell bad because it got mediocre reviews)

Gamestop will get its due justice but you can't blame ONLY used games, it's more of the action/shooter/gore saturated bubble that we got going on here. 

I sure do love Economics



http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/profile/92109/nintendopie/ Nintendopie  Was obviously right and I was obviously wrong. I will forever be a lesser being than them. (6/16/13)

http://warhorsestudios.cz/index.php?page=blog&entry=blog_007

this is a similar article. very interesting and a good read.



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DamnTastic said:
http://warhorsestudios.cz/index.php?page=blog&entry=blog_007

this is a similar article. very interesting and a good read.


THE COMMENTS WHAT DO THEY MEAN!



http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/profile/92109/nintendopie/ Nintendopie  Was obviously right and I was obviously wrong. I will forever be a lesser being than them. (6/16/13)

Otakumegane said:
DamnTastic said:
http://warhorsestudios.cz/index.php?page=blog&entry=blog_007

this is a similar article. very interesting and a good read.


THE COMMENTS WHAT DO THEY MEAN!


Ask my good friend ;)

http://translate.google.com/?client=aff-maxthon-newtab&channel=t2&hl=nl&tab=wT#cs/en/



If game developers are crying about used games.they should lock them and if the game is sold just pay 5 dollars to the developers and unlock them so every body is happy



VITA 32 GIG CARD.250 GIG SLIM & 160 GIG PHAT PS3

I think part of the problem is that publishers aren't running the show properly. Devs being thrown into the death march for months at a time to polish a game, which is caused by short development cycles. Games used to take 3 years to be made, now everything is being pushed into 2 year dev cycles, which causes more people to work on games. 300 people working on a game causes huge management problems, which lead to huge overheads, management wages, and misuse of staff. Game development needs to be rethought. If Bend can pump out an Uncharted game in 2 years, with 50 people working in the company then no core development team needs to be higher.



I'll laugh if the industry starts an all out war against used game sales, and then see devs and the gamers who believe this BS wondering why game sales have slumped so much.