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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Digital Foundry Face-Off: Batman: Arkham City Armored Edition on Wii U

darkknightkryta said:
RolStoppable said:
 

All it comes down to is whether you think it's realistic that the Wii U has already been maxed out. While it's true that the ports so far run with problems, it's also true that they haven't been optimized for the Wii U hardware at all. And just because Nintendo's launch games were titles that were never going to be graphics intensive doesn't mean that there will never be better looking Nintendo games than what we've seen so far. The game from Retro Studios (whatever it is) is pretty much poised to look fantastic, based on their track record.

Mr Khan's threat hasn't been more than a threat, an actual abuse of power has yet to happen. And it's unlikely to happen (at least on a sustained level), because there is a team of moderators that discusses decisions. Also, people did receive moderations for Vita bashing, so it's not like it's free play when it comes to Sony. Some Sony fans may perceive it as unfair that not every offender got punished, but it's not like every offender in regards to Nintendo and Microsoft topics gets punished either.

This is the problem Rol, there's a lot of evidence to support hardware issues as opposed to unoptimized software.  Like most "optimizations" that devs have to do will just bring the titles up to par and that's not a good sign.  People can tought "GPGPU" all they want but all that means is that they have to waste cycles on the GPU to do what the CPU should be doing (Since, you know, the CPU is underperforming).  So what does that leave for graphics?  What does that leave for gameplay mechanics if the Wii U can't handle current gen games well?  Which will be last gen games soon. 

If you're talking about optimization then the PS3 falls horribly on this category. After a full gen with tons of games there are still some that preform and look worse than the 360 version (Skyrim, CoD BO2, etc) and the PS3 is supposed to be a "more powerful" console. 

It's all about resources, if the developers don't have the money or time to make another version of their game they will not make it or they could make a "lazy" port of said game. 



Nintendo and PC gamer

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darkknightkryta said:

This is the problem Rol, there's a lot of evidence to support hardware issues as opposed to unoptimized software.  Like most "optimizations" that devs have to do will just bring the titles up to par and that's not a good sign.  People can tought "GPGPU" all they want but all that means is that they have to waste cycles on the GPU to do what the CPU should be doing (Since, you know, the CPU is underperforming).  So what does that leave for graphics?  What does that leave for gameplay mechanics if the Wii U can't handle current gen games well?  Which will be last gen games soon.  And yes you're right Mr. Kahn hasn't fully abused his powers yet, but the fact that he threatened someone is a bit discerning.  And yes you're right about the Vita moderations, but there's a difference between "Vita haez no gaemz" vs "Wii U has a weak CPU".  One is true, the other isn't (Though I'm sure you'll make some witty remark about Vita lacking games).  But again, I mention Vita as that's more recent, had it been last year we could have replaced Vita with 3DS and the argument would be the same, though Mr. Kahn might be moderating the 3DS hate more than he has been with the Vita hate.  Though ultimately I think people on this forum are getting a bit... worked up? (I can't think of a better phrase).  As I said before, Nintendo should have had at release something to show off the hardware capabilities.  Like you mention, Retro should be working on something and a demo should be shown.  But then again, does Retro have the resources and experience to work with a new shader set?  A little bit more from Nintendo could go a long way, instead we have people who were once praising the Wii U's unknown capabilities, to trying to defend weaker hardware (Which fully falls on Nintendo since their power consumption limit is hurting the Wii U more than anything).  And Mr. Kahn is one of these people, and it's gotten down to him having to threaten with moderation.  Yet he could easily have left Sensei's comments alone, and then after Nintendo releases something to shut the haters up (If that can even be possible since most evidence points to weaker hardware), then Kahn can start directing people to proof of the Wii U's capabilities.

The ports of the games we've seen so far were all heavily optimized for the 360 and PS3 architectures which differ to the Wii U's. The Wii U's CPU may be weaker, but its GPU is stronger, the system has a faster disc drive and more RAM, so there's certainly quite a lot of room for improvement. People seem to be amazed how far the 360 and PS3 have come when they compare launch titles of both systems with the games of today, but somehow we are to believe that the Wii U has already reached its limits? That is very, very, very doubtful. Shifting some of the CPU's workload over to the GPU would solve the problems in the current porting process, but for the launch games there was neither the manpower or time to get that done as the main development teams were too busy to finish the 360 and PS3 versions.

The comment we are talking about isn't "Wii U has a weak CPU", it is "Wii U has no potential" which puts it in the same ballpark as "Vita has no games".

There is certainly a lot of tension on the forums right now. Sony/Vita fans are ready to pounce after almost a year of being on the receiving end of the doom and many of them seem to hope that the Wii U will be a failure. Some of the discussion in the official Vita thread made this evident and I think a couple of people even got banned about a week ago. We are also in the middle of the holiday season, the time of the year when the 360 vs. PS3 discussions intensify. Things are tough on all fronts at the moment and this can also lead to mods losing their cool every now and then (they are human, after all), but as long as it doesn't lead to unwarranted bans, it's not that big of a problem.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

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to say, "Wii U has no potential" isnt an opinion. No matter how you try and spin that it just isnt... unless you explain why you feel that way. If you dont elaborate, it sounds like trolling to me. If I just said, the PS3 sucks, and left it at that, its trolling. The mods arent in the wrong so why admit that they are? And just going off of the launch titles then it is safe to say that the Wii U has some great potential. People said the Wii was just gamecube 1.5 and we woudnt see anything visually impressive on it, yet we got the 2 Galaxies, Metroid Prime 3, Red Steel 2, Xenoblade, Last Story, Rayman. The hardware improved as developers pushed it. The Wii U version of games visually seem to look better, tho the framerates are less consistent. When developers start taking advantage of the GPGPU you'll see the potential of the console.

See what I did there? I explained why I believed the console has potential. I gave an opinion as an opinion, not as a fact.



Games are fun.

RolStoppable said:

The ports of the games we've seen so far were all heavily optimized for the 360 and PS3 architectures which differ to the Wii U's. The Wii U's CPU may be weaker, but its GPU is stronger, the system has a faster disc drive and more RAM, so there's certainly quite a lot of room for improvement. People seem to be amazed how far the 360 and PS3 have come when they compare launch titles of both systems with the games of today, but somehow we are to believe that the Wii U has already reached its limits? That is very, very, very doubtful. Shifting some of the CPU's workload over to the GPU would solve the problems in the current porting process, but for the launch games there was neither the manpower or time to get that done as the main development teams were too busy to finish the 360 and PS3 versions.

The comment we are talking about isn't "Wii U has a weak CPU", it is "Wii U has no potential" which puts it in the same ballpark as "Vita has no games".

There is certainly a lot of tension on the forums right now. Sony/Vita fans are ready to pounce after almost a year of being on the receiving end of the doom and many of them seem to hope that the Wii U will be a failure. Some of the discussion in the official Vita thread made this evident and I think a couple of people even got banned about a week ago. We are also in the middle of the holiday season, the time of the year when the 360 vs. PS3 discussions intensify. Things are tough on all fronts at the moment and this can also lead to mods losing their cool every now and then (they are human, after all), but as long as it doesn't lead to unwarranted bans, it's not that big of a problem.

Tension was the word I was looking for!  But, again, the Wii U's architecture is almost identicle to the 360s.  Larger Edram, similar tri- powerPC based processor, advanced ATI/AMD GPU.  There shouldn't be issues, and there's quite a lot.  Saying the Wii U has no potential is saying a bit much, but there isn't much of one, atleast looking at what evidence we have.  But Wii U architecture should be discussed in another thread.



Mr Khan said:
TheShape31 said:
Someone saying that a console has no potential is an opinion. What about the people, that for months, have been going on and overstating Wii U's capabilities? That's apparently not trolling because their opinion goes in the opposite direction.

I think this type of threatened censorship is what makes these forums seem unwelcoming. In response to Sensei's post, you could've engaged in a conversation and asked them to elaborate. Why make unreasonable threats?

This is the first post I've ever made regarding moderating behavior. I just think that things have gotten a bit ridiculous around here.

Opinions can be categorically wrong, or simply too offensive to tolerate. I could say "hey, i think the Chinese are a bunch of lawless hooligans. They're not fit to govern themselves, imho."

"It's like, my opinion bro," is not a valid shield behind which to make baseless statements that degrade the level of discourse. It didn't fly when one user was relentlessly bashing Muslims in the latest Israel-Palestine thread, and it doesn't fly here. (and to say that we are being equal opportunity about it, it doesn't fly when a certain user goes off on his rants about Christians, either)

Now there is a degree of subjectivity that comes into matters like that, as there are such things as acceptable targets (like the Star Wars prequels, for instance. If we treated bashing of all things equally, i would have to clean house ine very star wars thread that comes up), but current consoles do not fall under that domain.

You simply cannot equate racial insensitivity to what Sensei commented.  Calling someone a name is very different from what was said.  They didn't comment that "Nintendo sucks", or "Nintendo is already dead", which cannot be backed up with any reasonable shred of evidence.  But saying that the Wii U's graphical potential has already been reached isn't out of the realm of discussion.  One could argue that the titles within the launch window of any previous Nintendo console showed the system's full potential.  Sure, art styles improved, graphics engines evolved, but the muscle of the system was always on display up front.

Just because Sensei didn't say a few more words like I did in order to back up their opinion, it doesn't mean that his idea wasn't valid and rational.  And others can argue against that point of view, that's valid as well.  Especially considering that we can't prove that Sensei is wrong at this point, I just don't see where a moderator has the right to step in.  It was not worthy of moderation (or threats), and I maintain my stance that it seems to be unfair censorship.



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TheShape31 said:
Mr Khan said:
TheShape31 said:
Someone saying that a console has no potential is an opinion. What about the people, that for months, have been going on and overstating Wii U's capabilities? That's apparently not trolling because their opinion goes in the opposite direction.

I think this type of threatened censorship is what makes these forums seem unwelcoming. In response to Sensei's post, you could've engaged in a conversation and asked them to elaborate. Why make unreasonable threats?

This is the first post I've ever made regarding moderating behavior. I just think that things have gotten a bit ridiculous around here.

Opinions can be categorically wrong, or simply too offensive to tolerate. I could say "hey, i think the Chinese are a bunch of lawless hooligans. They're not fit to govern themselves, imho."

"It's like, my opinion bro," is not a valid shield behind which to make baseless statements that degrade the level of discourse. It didn't fly when one user was relentlessly bashing Muslims in the latest Israel-Palestine thread, and it doesn't fly here. (and to say that we are being equal opportunity about it, it doesn't fly when a certain user goes off on his rants about Christians, either)

Now there is a degree of subjectivity that comes into matters like that, as there are such things as acceptable targets (like the Star Wars prequels, for instance. If we treated bashing of all things equally, i would have to clean house ine very star wars thread that comes up), but current consoles do not fall under that domain.

You simply cannot equate racial insensitivity to what Sensei commented.  Calling someone a name is very different from what was said.  They didn't comment that "Nintendo sucks", or "Nintendo is already dead", which cannot be backed up with any reasonable shred of evidence.  But saying that the Wii U's graphical potential has already been reached isn't out of the realm of discussion.  One could argue that the titles within the launch window of any previous Nintendo console showed the system's full potential.  Sure, art styles improved, graphics engines evolved, but the muscle of the system was always on display up front.

Just because Sensei didn't say a few more words like I did in order to back up their opinion, it doesn't mean that his idea wasn't valid and rational.  And others can argue against that point of view, that's valid as well.  Especially considering that we can't prove that Sensei is wrong at this point, I just don't see where a moderator has the right to step in.  It was not worthy of moderation (or threats), and I maintain my stance that it seems to be unfair censorship.

All this seems to come down to are those who seem to think that the Wii U's potential has already been reached, which, surprise surprise, seems to fall along console lines (and yet more ironically, be mostly Sony fans who seem to have erased the year 2007 and the name Bethesda from their minds)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

TheShape31 said:

You simply cannot equate racial insensitivity to what Sensei commented.  Calling someone a name is very different from what was said.  They didn't comment that "Nintendo sucks", or "Nintendo is already dead", which cannot be backed up with any reasonable shred of evidence.  But saying that the Wii U's graphical potential has already been reached isn't out of the realm of discussion.  One could argue that the titles within the launch window of any previous Nintendo console showed the system's full potential.  Sure, art styles improved, graphics engines evolved, but the muscle of the system was always on display up front.

Just because Sensei didn't say a few more words like I did in order to back up their opinion, it doesn't mean that his idea wasn't valid and rational.  And others can argue against that point of view, that's valid as well.  Especially considering that we can't prove that Sensei is wrong at this point, I just don't see where a moderator has the right to step in.  It was not worthy of moderation (or threats), and I maintain my stance that it seems to be unfair censorship.

@Bold. Which titles have truly shown the potential of Nintendo's new console? You can't blame someone for thinking that such an opinion is mindless trolling or just shameful ignorance. Either way, people should get informed, or just keep it to themselves.

Or at least ask it as a question or something! I mean it's so far from the truth a person should really ask before making assertions like that.

It could be considered bordlerline trolling honestly depending on the context. If I don't know what I'm talking about and say something very borderline from a general standpoint (that a console is maxed out at launch), then there needs to be some kind of give.



TheShape31 said:

 But saying that the Wii U's graphical potential has already been reached isn't out of the realm of discussion.  One could argue that the titles within the launch window of any previous Nintendo console showed the system's full potential. 





Nintendo and PC gamer

Mr Khan said:
TheShape31 said:
Mr Khan said:
TheShape31 said:
Someone saying that a console has no potential is an opinion. What about the people, that for months, have been going on and overstating Wii U's capabilities? That's apparently not trolling because their opinion goes in the opposite direction.

I think this type of threatened censorship is what makes these forums seem unwelcoming. In response to Sensei's post, you could've engaged in a conversation and asked them to elaborate. Why make unreasonable threats?

This is the first post I've ever made regarding moderating behavior. I just think that things have gotten a bit ridiculous around here.

Opinions can be categorically wrong, or simply too offensive to tolerate. I could say "hey, i think the Chinese are a bunch of lawless hooligans. They're not fit to govern themselves, imho."

"It's like, my opinion bro," is not a valid shield behind which to make baseless statements that degrade the level of discourse. It didn't fly when one user was relentlessly bashing Muslims in the latest Israel-Palestine thread, and it doesn't fly here. (and to say that we are being equal opportunity about it, it doesn't fly when a certain user goes off on his rants about Christians, either)

Now there is a degree of subjectivity that comes into matters like that, as there are such things as acceptable targets (like the Star Wars prequels, for instance. If we treated bashing of all things equally, i would have to clean house ine very star wars thread that comes up), but current consoles do not fall under that domain.

You simply cannot equate racial insensitivity to what Sensei commented.  Calling someone a name is very different from what was said.  They didn't comment that "Nintendo sucks", or "Nintendo is already dead", which cannot be backed up with any reasonable shred of evidence.  But saying that the Wii U's graphical potential has already been reached isn't out of the realm of discussion.  One could argue that the titles within the launch window of any previous Nintendo console showed the system's full potential.  Sure, art styles improved, graphics engines evolved, but the muscle of the system was always on display up front.

Just because Sensei didn't say a few more words like I did in order to back up their opinion, it doesn't mean that his idea wasn't valid and rational.  And others can argue against that point of view, that's valid as well.  Especially considering that we can't prove that Sensei is wrong at this point, I just don't see where a moderator has the right to step in.  It was not worthy of moderation (or threats), and I maintain my stance that it seems to be unfair censorship.

All this seems to come down to are those who seem to think that the Wii U's potential has already been reached, which, surprise surprise, seems to fall along console lines (and yet more ironically, be mostly Sony fans who seem to have erased the year 2007 and the name Bethesda from their minds)

So you allow partisanship to dictate your moderations?  You just assume that someone is a "fanboy" because they doubt one system's particular hardware capabilities?  I will criticise every console all the same because they all have their faults.  This "Us vs Them" mentality is what helps to perpetuate the issues you say you set out to prevent.  We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

-------------------------------

@happydolphin-

Again, one can use any number of launch window titles to make that point.  Opposed to someone simply saying that "Nintendo sucks".  The assumption that Sensei's comment was meant in a derogatory way says more about those reading the statement than the original statement itself.  Instead of jumping to conclusions right away, why not attempt to engage Sensei in discussion in order to allow them to explain things more?  If someone thinks that Sensei is off base, then why not set an example of how to communicate instead of using threats and namecalling (yes, using the term 'troll' is namecalling).

-------------------------------

Simply put, if you want people to act a certain way, help to set the example yourself (rather than taking cheapshots about "2007" and "Bethesda").  You come off just as bad as Sensei, if not worse.  If partisanship is a problem, be part of the solution.



TheShape31 said:

@happydolphin-

Again, one can use any number of launch window titles to make that point.  Opposed to someone simply saying that "Nintendo sucks".  The assumption that Sensei's comment was meant in a derogatory way says more about those reading the statement than the original statement itself.  Instead of jumping to conclusions right away, why not attempt to engage Sensei in discussion in order to allow them to explain things more?  If someone thinks that Sensei is off base, then why not set an example of how to communicate instead of using threats and namecalling (yes, using the term 'troll' is namecalling).

-------------------------------

Simply put, if you want people to act a certain way, help to set the example yourself (rather than taking cheapshots about "2007" and "Bethesda").  You come off just as bad as Sensei, if not worse.  If partisanship is a problem, be part of the solution.

I agree with the discussion part, and talking reason with people, but don't tell me the opinion was reasonable, that I won't accept.