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Forums - Politics Discussion - What can be done with Isreal? Realistically!

MrBubbles on 15 November 2012
Mummelmann said:
MrBubbles; so the holocaust excuses everything Israel does to someone else? That's an old and weak argument.


no one made that argument but you can continue to delude youself if you wish to be an ignoramus.



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Rath on 15 November 2012
MrBubbles said:


if not for israel taking those lands there wouldnt even be a chance at a state of palestine.  it would still be jordan and egypt.    its a small minority in israel that think the entire land should be israel.  its a small minority in the territories that dont want the entire land to be palestine.   abbas plays lip service to the idea sometimes and then says things that clearly demonstrate he doesnt it.    the right of return wont happen and the jews will never give back the western wall in east jerusalem, so those demands cannot be on the table of they want any deal with israel.   abbas made recent comments backing off the right of return but they still demand east jerusalem.   how can things even get off the ground with an impossible demand?

I think if Israel was properly willing to negotiate (which Netanyahu is very much not) with Fatah then I believe the situation could be resolved. Simply however Israel will have to compromise on Jerusalem - the East of Jerusalem is Palestinian and what Israel is trying to do is annex it. This should be condemned.

In any negotiation Israel will have to compromise as well as Palestine, they need to meet in the middle. Your comments seem to indicate that you think Palestine should accept all of Israels demands, this is not reasonable.



Kasz216 on 15 November 2012
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Eh, it's less "Fair Share" more "The US supports Israel."

If the US didn't support Israel... like say this exact situation happened elsewhere, practically no country would support Palestine because they would see it as a legitamization of "seperatists".  It's the same reason countries like... Spain don't recognize Kosovo.

Most of the world supports Palsestine because the United States supports Israel, there is in general a large alliance of countries that vote the opposite of the US  on every measure from Israel to global kitten appreciation day.

 

Now Europe.  Europe's backing off of Israel is actually a pretty interesting long term political development that began with a strange marriage of the Europeon Leftwing and Muslim Immigrants.  The Leftwing pretty much ignoring some of the more problematic issues from the immigration such as woman's rights for the voter support.

It's a different case with Palestine actually. They aren't seperatists so much as an occupied people - no state claims that Palestine is a sovereign part of Israel. As such countries that are afraid of the idea of seperatism such as China, Russia or Spain can feel much more comfortable about a Palestinian state.

Ask the Basque seperatists if there is a difference.   They will say no.

There really isn't any difference at all.  In general Palesetine support is mostly just based around the same NAM stuff as usual, which is, be against stuff the US is for and will Veto anyway, because why not.

It's similar to why Julian Assange is sitting in an Ecuadorian embassy right now even though if he did the same thing in equador he'd of been shot long ago.  (Well except that's to thumb it's nose at the British, not US.)

The only people who really remotely care are those adjacent to the issue because of all the refugee camps.

Where the countries actually tend to treat the refugees worse then the Israeli's treat Gaza.



Rath on 15 November 2012
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Eh, it's less "Fair Share" more "The US supports Israel."

If the US didn't support Israel... like say this exact situation happened elsewhere, practically no country would support Palestine because they would see it as a legitamization of "seperatists".  It's the same reason countries like... Spain don't recognize Kosovo.

Most of the world supports Palsestine because the United States supports Israel, there is in general a large alliance of countries that vote the opposite of the US  on every measure from Israel to global kitten appreciation day.

 

Now Europe.  Europe's backing off of Israel is actually a pretty interesting long term political development that began with a strange marriage of the Europeon Leftwing and Muslim Immigrants.  The Leftwing pretty much ignoring some of the more problematic issues from the immigration such as woman's rights for the voter support.

It's a different case with Palestine actually. They aren't seperatists so much as an occupied people - no state claims that Palestine is a sovereign part of Israel. As such countries that are afraid of the idea of seperatism such as China, Russia or Spain can feel much more comfortable about a Palestinian state.

Ask the Basque seperatists if there is a difference.   They will say no.

There really isn't any difference at all.  In general Palesetine support is mostly just based around the same NAM stuff as usual, which is, be against stuff the US is for and will Veto anyway, because why not.

It's similar to why Julian Assange is sitting in an Ecuadorian embassy right now even though if he did the same thing in equador he'd of been shot long ago.  (Well except that's to thumb it's nose at the British, not US.)

The only people who really remotely care are those adjacent to the issue because of all the refugee camps.

Where the countries actually tend to treat the refugees worse then the Israeli's treat Gaza.


According to the Basque seperatists there may not be a difference but in the eyes of other states there is. The difference that is apparent to those states is important.



the2real4mafol on 15 November 2012
MrBubbles said:
the2real4mafol said:
I think we should sanction Israel just like we did to Iran, and we should do that until they negotiate some sort of peace deal. The relationship between Israel and Palestine clearly hasn't worked since Israel formed in 1948! It's time for a two country system, and the time is now.

Under no circumstances, is what Israel doing in Gaza and the West Bank is right, you would think the world would of learnt it's lesson from the holocaust, but let the same sort of mistreatment to a group of people occurs now.

America, especially need to wake up and do something about this


you make me physically ill.   so here i hope to do the same to you while bringing you some sense:

 

dude!

 

You wonder why i compare it to the holocaust? Because the Israeli government treat palestinians like shit, they discriminated from doing any job they want, they are fenced off from there farmland like cattle, they drop bombs on them everyday and they are shot at everyday, maybe I went a bit far with the comment but the majority of the palestinian people are innocent, they shouldn't be treated so badly. I thought the Jewish people would of known better, especially after how badly they were treated in the past.

In no way, am I a nazi. I don't care if someone is Jewish, it is a part of there identity. Also, i think Israel should continue to exist but they need to look for peace and do it quickly, this conflict is not good for anyone. 



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MrBubbles on 15 November 2012
Rath said:
MrBubbles said:
 


if not for israel taking those lands there wouldnt even be a chance at a state of palestine.  it would still be jordan and egypt.    its a small minority in israel that think the entire land should be israel.  its a small minority in the territories that dont want the entire land to be palestine.   abbas plays lip service to the idea sometimes and then says things that clearly demonstrate he doesnt it.    the right of return wont happen and the jews will never give back the western wall in east jerusalem, so those demands cannot be on the table of they want any deal with israel.   abbas made recent comments backing off the right of return but they still demand east jerusalem.   how can things even get off the ground with an impossible demand?

I think if Israel was properly willing to negotiate (which Netanyahu is very much not) with Fatah then I believe the situation could be resolved. Simply however Israel will have to compromise on Jerusalem - the East of Jerusalem is Palestinian and what Israel is trying to do is annex it. This should be condemned.

In any negotiation Israel will have to compromise as well as Palestine, they need to meet in the middle. Your comments seem to indicate that you think Palestine should accept all of Israels demands, this is not reasonable.

east jerusalem is not palestinian.  what an odd comment from you.   how can you even imagine the jews would give up control of their holiest site and give it to someone who they cant even trust?   at best you could make an argument for a UN controlled city, but its not like the UN has been able to protect israel from its enemies so far.

there has never even been a state of palestine, mind you. 



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

MrBubbles on 15 November 2012

im going to play some saints row 3, so wont be responding to anything for awhile

 

(plus i would enjoy some opinions on what is proportionate force)



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

Kasz216 on 15 November 2012
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Eh, it's less "Fair Share" more "The US supports Israel."

If the US didn't support Israel... like say this exact situation happened elsewhere, practically no country would support Palestine because they would see it as a legitamization of "seperatists".  It's the same reason countries like... Spain don't recognize Kosovo.

Most of the world supports Palsestine because the United States supports Israel, there is in general a large alliance of countries that vote the opposite of the US  on every measure from Israel to global kitten appreciation day.

 

Now Europe.  Europe's backing off of Israel is actually a pretty interesting long term political development that began with a strange marriage of the Europeon Leftwing and Muslim Immigrants.  The Leftwing pretty much ignoring some of the more problematic issues from the immigration such as woman's rights for the voter support.

It's a different case with Palestine actually. They aren't seperatists so much as an occupied people - no state claims that Palestine is a sovereign part of Israel. As such countries that are afraid of the idea of seperatism such as China, Russia or Spain can feel much more comfortable about a Palestinian state.

Ask the Basque seperatists if there is a difference.   They will say no.

There really isn't any difference at all.  In general Palesetine support is mostly just based around the same NAM stuff as usual, which is, be against stuff the US is for and will Veto anyway, because why not.

It's similar to why Julian Assange is sitting in an Ecuadorian embassy right now even though if he did the same thing in equador he'd of been shot long ago.  (Well except that's to thumb it's nose at the British, not US.)

The only people who really remotely care are those adjacent to the issue because of all the refugee camps.

Where the countries actually tend to treat the refugees worse then the Israeli's treat Gaza.


According to the Basque seperatists there may not be a difference but in the eyes of other states there is. The difference that is apparent to those states is important.

Except.... it isn't.  People find excuses all the time to allow or disallow these things.  The "difference" you are talking about is just another excuse that holds no real meaning.   They would pull their support the moment it became apparent it might pass.



Kasz216 on 15 November 2012

Also... as for what should be done? Nothing.

Nothing should be done... because there isn't shit that could be done.

Even if by some miracle you convinced Israel and Fatah to agree.... and lets say you got a perfect 100% equal deal on both sides. Both sides citizens would find the deal completely unacceptable.

Neither side is willing to accept a split Jerusalem. Which, when you consider Palestine's negotiating position is really quite insane.

I mean... look at the reaction of the Palestine Papers. Fatah's negotiators had to resign for even broaching the offer... and they didn't even admit they offered it, saying it was made up! Assuming Israel did agree... what's the likelihood of it actually going through?

Palestine can't even admit the offers they made.



Kasz216 on 15 November 2012
Rath said:
MrBubbles said:
 


if not for israel taking those lands there wouldnt even be a chance at a state of palestine.  it would still be jordan and egypt.    its a small minority in israel that think the entire land should be israel.  its a small minority in the territories that dont want the entire land to be palestine.   abbas plays lip service to the idea sometimes and then says things that clearly demonstrate he doesnt it.    the right of return wont happen and the jews will never give back the western wall in east jerusalem, so those demands cannot be on the table of they want any deal with israel.   abbas made recent comments backing off the right of return but they still demand east jerusalem.   how can things even get off the ground with an impossible demand?

I think if Israel was properly willing to negotiate (which Netanyahu is very much not) with Fatah then I believe the situation could be resolved. Simply however Israel will have to compromise on Jerusalem - the East of Jerusalem is Palestinian and what Israel is trying to do is annex it. This should be condemned.


Most Palestinians in East Jerusalem want to be part of Israel though.  Shouldn't that be factored in?

Why ignore the wishes of the people actually living in the contested city?