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Forums - Politics Discussion - $5 Trillion Price Tag for Public Pensions~ When is enough enough?

mrstickball said:
darkknightkryta said:

But then unemployment rate shoots way up.  Suppose for GM, they need 10 people to make a car, 5 people ritire, that's 5 more jobs that openned up.  If you have people working until they die those 5 jobs will never open up and that's 5 more people unemployed.  5 less people unemployed what do they do?  Welfare?  Starve and die?  Like you're right about private pensions (For instance Air Canada had to pay more pensions than the money they were making yearly and causing big losses), but that same problem also affects unemployment.  Which comes back to the government having to step in and pay pensions, but they don't have the money for it which is why they want retirement age raised, but all this does is delay the inevitable and causes more unemployment (Especially with companies downsizing left, right and centre because they screwed themselves over with their greed).  Which comes back to the money not existing for people who are born every day and that money needing to be printed so they can pay for retirement.  Governments don't want to print more money cause it causes the dollar to devalue and inflation to hit.  Which comes back to my statement of governments should be allowed to print a certain amount of money yearly without penalty to redistribute into pensions and jobs.  Or close all tax loopholes and make a far larger tax bracket on rich people who even if half their money was taxed yearly they'd still make a hell of a lot more than everybody, pay 50k a year in their country clubs, and still save.

You're using zero-sum beliefs to explain a situation that isn't zero-sum.

The unemployed people? They can find jobs elsewhere. Its not unheardof for people to re-tool to other jobs. If they have any skills at all, they should be able to be hired elsewhere.

What jobs?  Most jobs are retail that don't pay well.  Most manufacturing jobs have been shipped over seas.

You have no idea about printing money, and your statements show it. Unless money is backed by something - goods and services being produced - then it is simply paper. If you let the print any amount of money beyond what the M1 or M2 level is, then you're simply inflating what is already there - which does absolutely nothing, other than drive up the price of goods and services, rendering the pensioners' funds useless.

Like I said printing money causes inflation due to your said reasons, but this doesn't change the fact that the money needed to pay the people of tomorrow does not exist as it's all in circulation already.

Furthermore, even if you magically waved a wand and made all rich people (say 250k/yr) pay 50% of their incomes, no loopholes, it would barely be enough to pay for what we spend today - much less what it'd be in 5 years. That doesn't include increases in government costs in so many other areas.

You're telling me that 125k a year isn't enough for anybody?  The livable wage up here in Canada is around 45k per person... that leaves 80k a year for people to save, spend, pay mortgages, buy Corvettes, etc.  This also gives the government 125k more to play with vs 50k they would be getting (assuming a 20% tax rate).

This is why many of us argue against the welfare state - it's not sustainable. When the lifespan of people is increasing, while government pensioner retirement ages are static, it continues to drain what little is in the system. Because of that, we've gone from 10 people supporting every 1 retiree to about 4.5 supporting 1 retiree, with that number dropping yearly.

This is true, but you have to pay pensions because you have to have people retire to free up jobs, which comes back to the need for more money to pay people.  Birthrates are increasing quite drastically there aren't enough jobs nor enough money for these people.

Furthermore, companies aren't downsizing because of greed. Where do you get that idea from? Do you even own or run a business? If it were greed, why would any company hire at all?

No I'm not a business man, but unemployment rate wouldn't be so high if business were hiring now would it?  Oh wait that's right most business aren't hiring and are slashing jobs or shipping them over seas.  Why would they ship jobs over seas?  To make more money by paying less in labour.  If that's not greed then I don't know what is.





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People will not like it, but we have to raise the retirement age to at least 75. We are healthier than ever and living longer than ever before. 100 years ago, most people were lucky to even retire, yet alone get a pension! but now people often retire at 60 to 65 and live till 80 or 90 (there are lots more OAP's now too), which is a long time to do hardly anything, which is costing the government far too much money



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mrstickball said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
Tax cuts was what bought USA to deficit. Obama can do whatever the hell he wants to dig USA out. Be it tax rise.


Not quite true.

Federal tax revenue is at about 16% of GDP - down from a 50 year average of about 18.5%. Spending is at 26% of GDP - up from an average of about 19% of GDP.

Tell me, which one do you think causes more deficits? Revenues being down 2.5% from their historical average, or spending being up 7% from historical averages?

It's a clear a combination of tax cuts and higher spending, proved disastrous for the debt in the US, higher taxes and lower spending (eg army) are needed



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

darkknightkryta said:
mrstickball said:

You're using zero-sum beliefs to explain a situation that isn't zero-sum.

The unemployed people? They can find jobs elsewhere. Its not unheardof for people to re-tool to other jobs. If they have any skills at all, they should be able to be hired elsewhere.

What jobs?  Most jobs are retail that don't pay well.  Most manufacturing jobs have been shipped over seas.

You have no idea about printing money, and your statements show it. Unless money is backed by something - goods and services being produced - then it is simply paper. If you let the print any amount of money beyond what the M1 or M2 level is, then you're simply inflating what is already there - which does absolutely nothing, other than drive up the price of goods and services, rendering the pensioners' funds useless.

Like I said printing money causes inflation due to your said reasons, but this doesn't change the fact that the money needed to pay the people of tomorrow does not exist as it's all in circulation already.

Furthermore, even if you magically waved a wand and made all rich people (say 250k/yr) pay 50% of their incomes, no loopholes, it would barely be enough to pay for what we spend today - much less what it'd be in 5 years. That doesn't include increases in government costs in so many other areas.

You're telling me that 125k a year isn't enough for anybody?  The livable wage up here in Canada is around 45k per person... that leaves 80k a year for people to save, spend, pay mortgages, buy Corvettes, etc.  This also gives the government 125k more to play with vs 50k they would be getting (assuming a 20% tax rate).

This is why many of us argue against the welfare state - it's not sustainable. When the lifespan of people is increasing, while government pensioner retirement ages are static, it continues to drain what little is in the system. Because of that, we've gone from 10 people supporting every 1 retiree to about 4.5 supporting 1 retiree, with that number dropping yearly.

This is true, but you have to pay pensions because you have to have people retire to free up jobs, which comes back to the need for more money to pay people.  Birthrates are increasing quite drastically there aren't enough jobs nor enough money for these people.

Furthermore, companies aren't downsizing because of greed. Where do you get that idea from? Do you even own or run a business? If it were greed, why would any company hire at all?

No I'm not a business man, but unemployment rate wouldn't be so high if business were hiring now would it?  Oh wait that's right most business aren't hiring and are slashing jobs or shipping them over seas.  Why would they ship jobs over seas?  To make more money by paying less in labour.  If that's not greed then I don't know what is.

 

1. If you have capital investment, and a good regulatory environment, you're going to be able to see lots of comparable jobs when people are downsizing. But when you have a bad economy that is shrinking, then you do in fact just get the crappy jobs.

2. If you want to pay the people of tomorrow, then you need to create goods and products that can create the money supply. Otherwise, you're just printing money which will render their pensions useless during hyperinflation. Its happened before. You can't print money into a prosperous economy.

3. If someone wants to work hard and become ultra-wealthy.....Why should you dis-incentivize them from doing that? The more you tax someone, the less motivation they are going to have to work hard and become rich. That creates huge problems, as many of the wealthiest also (tend to) contribute a lot to the economy.

4. You prove you don't understand why jobs are being shipped overseas. Yes, they are cheaper over there, but why are they cheaper overseas? If the simple answer was wages, then why did the jobs exist here at all in the first place? Would you like the real reason as to why jobs go overseas? Its not wages. Its regulations and overhead. Right now, it costs an average manufacturer about $15,000 USD in compliance costs per worker per year. If your job has 100 factory workers, then that means you have about $1.5 million USD in compliance costs every year you are here. That forces companies to significantly evaluate where they do business. This is why a country like South Korea is doing so well: Despite having a very modern economy, they are continuing to outpace virtually everyone else. Why? Ease of business & tax code. South Korea is one of the easiest in the world. It makes for more businesses and better ones too.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

the2real4mafol said:
mrstickball said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
Tax cuts was what bought USA to deficit. Obama can do whatever the hell he wants to dig USA out. Be it tax rise.


Not quite true.

Federal tax revenue is at about 16% of GDP - down from a 50 year average of about 18.5%. Spending is at 26% of GDP - up from an average of about 19% of GDP.

Tell me, which one do you think causes more deficits? Revenues being down 2.5% from their historical average, or spending being up 7% from historical averages?

It's a clear a combination of tax cuts and higher spending, proved disastrous for the debt in the US, higher taxes and lower spending (eg army) are needed


I don't disagree that taxes need to be more in-line with historical norms. But lets face the fact: You're going to have to cut a lot more government than you raise in taxes...To the tune of 3:1 or even 4:1.

That's why I want a fair tax / flat tax with no loopholes. Set a target revenue of 17-18% of GDP, and then cut government to meet that target.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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mrstickball said:

1. If you have capital investment, and a good regulatory environment, you're going to be able to see lots of comparable jobs when people are downsizing. But when you have a bad economy that is shrinking, then you do in fact just get the crappy jobs.

Economy isn't doing well now is it?  Which leaves us with crappy jobs.

2. If you want to pay the people of tomorrow, then you need to create goods and products that can create the money supply. Otherwise, you're just printing money which will render their pensions useless during hyperinflation. Its happened before. You can't print money into a prosperous economy.

We don't have a properous economy or else a lot of governments wouldn't be in the mess they are in now.  But my idea isn't to print a vast amount of money, but rather an amount that can be distributed without causing an inflation penalty

3. If someone wants to work hard and become ultra-wealthy.....Why should you dis-incentivize them from doing that? The more you tax someone, the less motivation they are going to have to work hard and become rich. That creates huge problems, as many of the wealthiest also (tend to) contribute a lot to the economy.

Because you live in a place where you pay a government to run the land.  They're the ones in control and if they need more money from the rich, then that's what they have to do.  Rich don't like it then move to a place with no government.

4. You prove you don't understand why jobs are being shipped overseas. Yes, they are cheaper over there, but why are they cheaper overseas? If the simple answer was wages, then why did the jobs exist here at all in the first place? Would you like the real reason as to why jobs go overseas? Its not wages. Its regulations and overhead. Right now, it costs an average manufacturer about $15,000 USD in compliance costs per worker per year. If your job has 100 factory workers, then that means you have about $1.5 million USD in compliance costs every year you are here. That forces companies to significantly evaluate where they do business. This is why a country like South Korea is doing so well: Despite having a very modern economy, they are continuing to outpace virtually everyone else. Why? Ease of business & tax code. South Korea is one of the easiest in the world. It makes for more businesses and better ones too.

So the fact that Foxcomm pays 2 dollars an hour vs a job that would cost here atleast 16 dollars an hour isn't a deciding factor?  Most problems today are because of all this outsourcing. I doubt that paultry overhead is nothing compared to the circular problem of making money off of people buying things.  Things people can't buy if they have no money, people have no money cause they have no jobs or poor paying jobs and are just getting buy, a huge manufacturing sector is practically outsourced causing these lack of jobs.  This is a huge causality problem that can be easily solved if business men weren't greedy.  Oh and jobs existed here before hand cause there was no free trade, it wasn't cheaper to make something over seas cause of the large taxation.  That's not the case anymore.