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Forums - Politics Discussion - $5 Trillion Price Tag for Public Pensions~ When is enough enough?

It seems to be politically taboo to suggest that promised pensions, even those being paid out now, should come down. And the retirement age also needs to go up to 70+, not in 2020 or 2025 but asap. Anyone in the public sector who's retired before 65 (and is still under 65) should be asked to return to work to recieve the full value of their pension.



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Soleron said:

It seems to be politically taboo to suggest that promised pensions, even those being paid out now, should come down. And the retirement age also needs to go up to 70+, not in 2020 or 2025 but asap. Anyone in the public sector who's retired before 65 (and is still under 65) should be asked to return to work to recieve the full value of their pension.

Pension part is somewhat fine but if those boomers keep on working till they combust than the waiting line for young people to replace them gets even longer. We all can't in video game industry. One of the few places not dominated by those booming people. 



green_sky said:
Soleron said:

It seems to be politically taboo to suggest that promised pensions, even those being paid out now, should come down. And the retirement age also needs to go up to 70+, not in 2020 or 2025 but asap. Anyone in the public sector who's retired before 65 (and is still under 65) should be asked to return to work to recieve the full value of their pension.

Pension part is somewhat fine but if those boomers keep on working till they combust than the waiting line for young people to replace them gets even longer. We all can't in video game industry. One of the few places not dominated by those booming people. 

This makes absolutely no sense. Having a greater % of people alive being employed is always a better thing. There is not a finite number of jobs.



Soleron said:
green_sky said:
Soleron said:

It seems to be politically taboo to suggest that promised pensions, even those being paid out now, should come down. And the retirement age also needs to go up to 70+, not in 2020 or 2025 but asap. Anyone in the public sector who's retired before 65 (and is still under 65) should be asked to return to work to recieve the full value of their pension.

Pension part is somewhat fine but if those boomers keep on working till they combust than the waiting line for young people to replace them gets even longer. We all can't in video game industry. One of the few places not dominated by those booming people. 

This makes absolutely no sense. Having a greater % of people alive employed is always a better thing. There is not a finite number of jobs.

I might not be anywhere close to right but i am speaking from my experience of studying changing demographics of employment. We already have delayed adulthood for most of today's youth for various number of reasons. There is only so many people companies in the services and other sector can employ before they reach economies of scale. The delayed retirement is having an effect on this. How much it is to blame. I am not sure. 

Youth unemployment is quite a bit higher than overall unemployment. There is no one offering decent starting salaries to graduates even compared to 5-6 years ago. Most end up slightly better if not same compared to people who skipped formal education after high school. Maybe things are better in the UK but from what i read that is not true. 



green_sky said:
Soleron said:
green_sky said:
Soleron said:

It seems to be politically taboo to suggest that promised pensions, even those being paid out now, should come down. And the retirement age also needs to go up to 70+, not in 2020 or 2025 but asap. Anyone in the public sector who's retired before 65 (and is still under 65) should be asked to return to work to recieve the full value of their pension.

Pension part is somewhat fine but if those boomers keep on working till they combust than the waiting line for young people to replace them gets even longer. We all can't in video game industry. One of the few places not dominated by those booming people. 

This makes absolutely no sense. Having a greater % of people alive employed is always a better thing. There is not a finite number of jobs.

I might not be anywhere close to right but i am speaking from my experience of studying changing demographics of employment.

I attend my university's economics lectures when I want to see a pantomime.

There is only so many people companies in the services and other sector can employ before they reach economies of scale.

wat. If more old people are employed instead of being dependent, the overall wealth of the country is greater -> can support more jobs -> more jobs created for younger poeple. The limiting factor right now is mostly the availability of capital.

The delayed retirement is having an effect on this. How much it is to blame. I am not sure. 

Youth unemployment is quite a bit higher than overall unemployment. There is no one offering decent starting salaries to graduates even compared to 5-6 years ago. Most end up slightly better if not same compared to people who skipped formal education after high school.

Then you're at the wrong university or doing the wrong degree. It's supply and demand, "youth" need to choose a degree that will get them employment. I'm aiming for a field desperate for qualified graduates, and some of my friends are being paid £30k right out of school.

Maybe things are better in the UK but from what i read that is not true. 

Correct. If anything the US economy is stronger because you still manufacture stuff and are generally self-sufficient.



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Soleron said:
green_sky said:
Soleron said:
green_sky said:
Soleron said:

It seems to be politically taboo to suggest that promised pensions, even those being paid out now, should come down. And the retirement age also needs to go up to 70+, not in 2020 or 2025 but asap. Anyone in the public sector who's retired before 65 (and is still under 65) should be asked to return to work to recieve the full value of their pension.

Pension part is somewhat fine but if those boomers keep on working till they combust than the waiting line for young people to replace them gets even longer. We all can't in video game industry. One of the few places not dominated by those booming people. 

This makes absolutely no sense. Having a greater % of people alive employed is always a better thing. There is not a finite number of jobs.

I might not be anywhere close to right but i am speaking from my experience of studying changing demographics of employment.

I attend my university's economics lectures when I want to see a pantomime.

There is only so many people companies in the services and other sector can employ before they reach economies of scale.

wat. If more old people are employed instead of being dependent, the overall wealth of the country is greater -> can support more jobs -> more jobs created for younger poeple. The limiting factor right now is mostly the availability of capital.

The delayed retirement is having an effect on this. How much it is to blame. I am not sure. 

Youth unemployment is quite a bit higher than overall unemployment. There is no one offering decent starting salaries to graduates even compared to 5-6 years ago. Most end up slightly better if not same compared to people who skipped formal education after high school.

Then you're at the wrong university or doing the wrong degree. It's supply and demand, "youth" need to choose a degree that will get them employment. I'm aiming for a field desperate for qualified graduates, and some of my friends are being paid £30k right out of school.

Maybe things are better in the UK but from what i read that is not true. 

Correct. If anything the US economy is stronger because you still manufacture stuff and are generally self-sufficient.

Good for you man. I am genuinely happy for those who are doing well (not being sarcastic). I guess i majored in the wrong major (Economics/pantomime). I'll try to recify that by studying some more. We are going to the be first generation worse off than the one before and by quite a big margin. Some of us will persist and get through this despite our differing opinions on the changing demographics of employment. Peace.

By the way i am in Canada. We are about 4-5 years behind US. About to enter price inflation of products and while at the same time Asset deflation. Not a good time to be in. 



@Soleron, while your views might represent the private market decently, you are failing to realize the entire job market. Take my degree for instance (Wildlife and Fisheries Management). Sure I could find a private sector job that might stick up for the environment (while most private jobs involving this degree probably would be arguing for more lax rules) but there are very few. My main chance to use my degree would be working as a park ranger, controlled burn specialist, zoo keeper, etc. My degree mainly involves public jobs. Wildlife jobs are one of the first to be cut and if there are a bunch of old park rangers staying in their job then that means no job for me. Try getting a job in the Wildlife sector that adheres to your values then get back to me. Sure I probably chose a terrible degree but it is the old people staying in their jobs that is keeping me from being able to obtain a wildlife job.  Case in point there isn't enough wildlife jobs for all the wildlife majors.



Soleron said:
green_sky said:
Soleron said:
green_sky said:
Soleron said:

It seems to be politically taboo to suggest that promised pensions, even those being paid out now, should come down. And the retirement age also needs to go up to 70+, not in 2020 or 2025 but asap. Anyone in the public sector who's retired before 65 (and is still under 65) should be asked to return to work to recieve the full value of their pension.

Pension part is somewhat fine but if those boomers keep on working till they combust than the waiting line for young people to replace them gets even longer. We all can't in video game industry. One of the few places not dominated by those booming people. 

This makes absolutely no sense. Having a greater % of people alive employed is always a better thing. There is not a finite number of jobs.

I might not be anywhere close to right but i am speaking from my experience of studying changing demographics of employment.

I attend my university's economics lectures when I want to see a pantomime.

There is only so many people companies in the services and other sector can employ before they reach economies of scale.

wat. If more old people are employed instead of being dependent, the overall wealth of the country is greater -> can support more jobs -> more jobs created for younger poeple. The limiting factor right now is mostly the availability of capital.

The delayed retirement is having an effect on this. How much it is to blame. I am not sure. 

Youth unemployment is quite a bit higher than overall unemployment. There is no one offering decent starting salaries to graduates even compared to 5-6 years ago. Most end up slightly better if not same compared to people who skipped formal education after high school.

Then you're at the wrong university or doing the wrong degree. It's supply and demand, "youth" need to choose a degree that will get them employment. I'm aiming for a field desperate for qualified graduates, and some of my friends are being paid £30k right out of school.

Maybe things are better in the UK but from what i read that is not true. 

Correct. If anything the US economy is stronger because you still manufacture stuff and are generally self-sufficient.

Generally Green Sky is right on this. You can look at Japan for other examples; the need to stay employed longer does strangle new graduates. It's not at all about the young people choosing the wrong degree, but because instead that slow economic conditions mean old people feel compelled to stay on, which represses young people, which further stalls the economy because the old people are just spending that income on supplementing too-weak old-age plans instead of on the big consumer goods that young people usually buy. For instance, our generation does not buy homes, or cars. We live in apartments (which, surprise surprise, is causing *those* to become too expensive now too) and do rideshare.

Unless we can retire the old folks, the whole economy is going to collapse as the millennials instead become the "manchild generation," those who never grew up because they were never given a chance to grow up.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

sethnintendo said:

@Soleron, while your views might represent the private market decently, you are failing to realize the entire job market. Take my degree for instance (Wildlife and Fisheries Management). Sure I could find a private sector job that might stick up for the environment (while most private jobs involving this degree probably would be arguing for more lax rules) but there are very few. My main chance to use my degree would be working as a park ranger, controlled burning specialist, zoo keeper, etc. My degree mainly involves public jobs. Wildlife jobs are one of the first to be cut and if there are a bunch of old park rangers staying in their job then that means no job for me. Try getting a job in the Wildlife sector that adheres to your values then get back to me. Sure I probably chose a terrible degree but it is the old people staying in their jobs that is keeping me from being able to obtain a wildlife job.  Case in point there isn't enough wildlife jobs for all the wildlife majors.

But that is exactly the point I was making. You chose a degree in which you knew there was limited demand and you have to bear that. The old people being employed isn't the problem - it's that, you're right, the demand for wildlife jobs specifically won't grow with population. But in raw materials and manufaturing and services, those jobs WILL grow the more people out of the economy are working instead of retired.

@green_sky

I didn't mean to insult your choice of major. Economics is not one of those degrees with no application to jobs I was talking about, I just don't think it's taught well right now, too much like an arts subject where it's about debating opinions of dead people. I mean more like Theatre Studies or Social Care or Forensic Science degrees I see lots of low-ability people from my old school going into believing they would end up in the appropriate job (on the stage/for-life council job/CSI respectively).



...

Generally Green Sky is right on this. You can look at Japan for other examples; the need to stay employed longer does strangle new graduates. It's not at all about the young people choosing the wrong degree, but because instead that slow economic conditions mean old people feel compelled to stay on, which represses young people, which further stalls the economy because the old people are just spending that income on supplementing too-weak old-age plans instead of on the big consumer goods that young people usually buy. For instance, our generation does not buy homes, or cars. We live in apartments (which, surprise surprise, is causing *those* to become too expensive now too) and do rideshare.

Unless we can retire the old folks, the whole economy is going to collapse as the millennials instead become the "manchild generation," those who never grew up because they were never given a chance to grow up.

I don't believe in this economic value for its own sake thing. We don't "need people to buy cars" to have a good economy, it's like saying that the Hurricane helped the economy because of all the construction jobs now available. Old people have those jobs because they have the skills and experience to do them, and the moment a young person becomes better value they should be exchanged, in a free market (I definitely believe in weaker labour laws).

There is a problem with youth employment, yes. There should be more training schemes, more information and help to young people to find jobs, more apprenticeships or short military enrollment opportunities to help them learn responsibility. I still think "we can't have the jobs because old people are in them" is absurd and not considering the economy as a whole instead of your personal situation.

I chose wrong as well. I did Physics, and, well, there are no jobs in Physics. I'm just lucky the mathematics content of my degree allows me to do what I want, teaching, and for other people it allows them to take highly-paid banking and accountancy jobs.