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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Skyward Sword story inconsistencies (SPOILERS!)

S.Peelman on 01 November 2012
F0X said:
S.Peelman said:
fordy said:

As mentioned in Skyward Sword, very few mortals are able to handle the power of the complete Triforce. I'd say Ganondorf's intervention showed that he was only given the piece that resembled his desires the most.

I think I do recall the Triforce splitting in Wind Waker. It stayed put in Skyward Sword...Link to the Past is very controversial, mainly because the Triforce did a "reverse join" effect just to show the "The End" screen. That could be interpreted any kind of way. Adventure of Link didn't show much about the Triforce after Zelda awakened..

Yes, I just rewatched the Skyward Sword ending.

At least I think we can explain why Link still has to defeat Demise. Fi the Sword Spirit instructs Link to wish Demise (or in the present day; The Immortal) to be exterminated. I think he does this in a very literal way, Link wished the Immortal is dead. This happens, but what he should have wished for is to erase Demise from history!

The Triforce remains a strange thing, it indeed stays at the top of the statue, and doesn't split after Link's wish... I don't know why. The only thing I could think of, but that's probably more fan-fiction than anything else, is that the statue, being named 'Statue of the Goddess', is the natural habitat for the Triforce, and it always returns to this statue if something happens to it. Now, this didn't happen because it was already at it's safe spot. Additional 'evidence' for this would be that it is said in Ocarina and A Link to the Past that the Triforce was hidden in the Sacred Realm after mortal people started waging wars over it (which must happen after Skyward Sword)...

But this is just random guessing...


He should've asked for the Triforce of Power to be destroyed.

Or that . Would've saved the world a whole lot of trouble.



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Metrium on 01 November 2012
fordy said:

(This thread is meant to contain spoilers, so don't blame me if you read this and come across a part of the story you haven't reached yet)

 

 

I know this thread is a little late, considering we're approaching the 1 year mark of Skyward Sword. I stopped playing after the first temple with a distaste in the game, but only recently I've came back to it, and it's really grown on me. My favourite part is the return of the physical incarnation of the Triforce, and being able to actually acquire it. Must just be my obsession of treasures shaped like golden triangles. However, this is what baffles me (and it's probably already been discussed before). I want to get this off my chest, but my friends are even further behind in the game than I am.

The Triforce has always signified the ultimate power in the Zelda series. Only in three games I can count have wishes been granted from the Triforce (as a whole). In The Adventure of Link, the united Triforce awakens Zelda from her eternal slumber and reigns in an era of peace for Hyrule (and by most timeline theories, signals the end of the Zelda timeline). Same with Link to the Past. Not only did Ganon get a wish which turned the Golden Land into The Dark World, Link's wishes at the end bring people back from the dead. The third game is Skyward Sword, in where a wish is granted before the end of the game

So Link collects the pieces of the Triforce, unites them and makes the wish to destroy Demise. All good so far...but, shouldn't this signify the end of the game? Link is in posession of the ultimate power, and he lets Zelda get captured and sent into the past where Demise still resides. Surely if the Temple of Time resides, it's not outside the power of the Triforce to go back into the past and wish for Demise to be destroyed there, as well.

On a side note, the game focuses around the creation of the Master Sword, yet the Triforce is referred to as the ultimate power from "the old gods". Wouldn't they be (considering this would be a game for the start of the Zelda timeline) classed as more "newer" gods earlier in the timeline than say Ocarina of Time or Link to the Past? 


It's never to late to talk about SS.

 

OT: It's simple and not a consistency, the Triforce put an end to Demise  from now onwards. It ''killed'' Demise but only after Link gathered the Triforce, meaning that in the past, before link gathered the triforce, Demise is still existent. It did'nt erase Demise from existent like he never existed, he still existed meaning that all the harm he did in the past and the creation of Ghirahim and the war that caused hylians to go up into the sky still occured. All it did is seal for good his prison with the big statue and ''kill'' him. I'm not really sure why you would'nt be ok with the fact that if Girahim kidnaps zelda and go thru a time portal into the past he would be able to get to demise.

On the side note: I'm not sure I understand your point, but if you mean what I think you mean, then yes the ''old gods'' are were not as old in SS as in other games since in SS is the first game but they are still pretty old. The same way as if I talk about cave men being a old civilisation, sur if you go back in time 2000 years ago, the ''old civilisation'' im talking about are technicaly not as old (2012 years younger) but they are still millions of years old.



 

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fordy on 01 November 2012
Metrium said:
fordy said:

(This thread is meant to contain spoilers, so don't blame me if you read this and come across a part of the story you haven't reached yet)

 

 

I know this thread is a little late, considering we're approaching the 1 year mark of Skyward Sword. I stopped playing after the first temple with a distaste in the game, but only recently I've came back to it, and it's really grown on me. My favourite part is the return of the physical incarnation of the Triforce, and being able to actually acquire it. Must just be my obsession of treasures shaped like golden triangles. However, this is what baffles me (and it's probably already been discussed before). I want to get this off my chest, but my friends are even further behind in the game than I am.

The Triforce has always signified the ultimate power in the Zelda series. Only in three games I can count have wishes been granted from the Triforce (as a whole). In The Adventure of Link, the united Triforce awakens Zelda from her eternal slumber and reigns in an era of peace for Hyrule (and by most timeline theories, signals the end of the Zelda timeline). Same with Link to the Past. Not only did Ganon get a wish which turned the Golden Land into The Dark World, Link's wishes at the end bring people back from the dead. The third game is Skyward Sword, in where a wish is granted before the end of the game

So Link collects the pieces of the Triforce, unites them and makes the wish to destroy Demise. All good so far...but, shouldn't this signify the end of the game? Link is in posession of the ultimate power, and he lets Zelda get captured and sent into the past where Demise still resides. Surely if the Temple of Time resides, it's not outside the power of the Triforce to go back into the past and wish for Demise to be destroyed there, as well.

On a side note, the game focuses around the creation of the Master Sword, yet the Triforce is referred to as the ultimate power from "the old gods". Wouldn't they be (considering this would be a game for the start of the Zelda timeline) classed as more "newer" gods earlier in the timeline than say Ocarina of Time or Link to the Past? 


It's never to late to talk about SS.

 

OT: It's simple and not a consistency, the Triforce put an end to Demise  from now onwards. It ''killed'' Demise but only after Link gathered the Triforce, meaning that in the past, before link gathered the triforce, Demise is still existent. It did'nt erase Demise from existent like he never existed, he still existed meaning that all the harm he did in the past and the creation of Ghirahim and the war that caused hylians to go up into the sky still occured. All it did is seal for good his prison with the big statue and ''kill'' him. I'm not really sure why you would'nt be ok with the fact that if Girahim kidnaps zelda and go thru a time portal into the past he would be able to get to demise.

On the side note: I'm not sure I understand your point, but if you mean what I think you mean, then yes the ''old gods'' are were not as old in SS as in other games since in SS is the first game but they are still pretty old. The same way as if I talk about cave men being a old civilisation, sur if you go back in time 2000 years ago, the ''old civilisation'' im talking about are technicaly not as old (2012 years younger) but they are still millions of years old.


Yes, but given the series' intervention with time (The Triforce able to manpulate going back and forth in time in OoT, and the time gates in Skyward sword) would you believe that travelling in time with the Triforce would be out of the limits of power for the "ultimate power"? Link may not have collected the Triforce in the past, but given that there is so much ability to manipulate time in the series, that the Triforce would have such a power to do so, too.

With the "old gods" argument, it's mainly timeline based. Since Skyward Sword is the earliest instalment in the series, why are they referred to as "old gods" here, but just as "gods" in the later timeline games like Link to the Past? Did the godess Hylia become irrelevant or something in that time?



Mr Khan on 01 November 2012
F0X said:
Mr Khan said:
F0X said:
S.Peelman said:
F0X said:
The Zelda timeline is not even an actual timeline to begin with. It's really a Zelda multiverse in which Nintendo's writers can get away with anything and everything.

Recently, a timeline was sort of made canon because of it's inclusion in the 'Hyrule Historia' book, which is an official Nintendo release. This basically also confirmes all games occur in the same universe, over a span of many millenia.

You are right that the timeline is not an actual literal telling of history, like in say Star Wars, however. The book mentions a sort of clause. All stories in the games are 'Legends', like the titles say, which means they have been passed down for like thousends of generations and because stories change over time, details can differ between games. For example, to Wind Waker, something like Ocarina of Time happened. To NES Zelda (the original), something like A Link to the Past happened. And so on. The splitting in OoT occurs because of supernatural means, the way the timeline splits from OoT to ALttP is still a matter of debate though as it is not explicitely said in the book. Most have interpreted it as 'Link dies', of which I'm not a fan off, that way you could have a million timelines.

So yes, Nintendo writers can get away with anything .


Unfortunately, believeing that they exist in the same universe also means a giant gap or inconsistency in continuity. Remember the part in Ocarina of Time in which Link failed and Hyrule wasn't saved? I didn't. Because it didn't happen. The split timeline thing happened. That's perfectly acceptable. But since Link didn't fail in OoT's storyline, there's a plot inconsistency.

Unless, of course, the Zelda timeline is a multiverse. In that case, anything is possible. You could get a Game Over in Ocarina of Time and, oh, there's a branch universe created in which A Link to the Past takes place. If I could fix my problem with embedding videos, I have one that explains this idea rather well...

...nope. Okay, here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1TSpfPFNlE

Khuutra once cited an interesting theory whereby the theft of the Silver Gauntlets created a third timeline, one equivalent to Link simply failing (but not getting killed), because the theft of the Silver Gauntlets did not occur in a stable time loop like the draining of the Kakariko Well did. The silver gauntlets are, presumably, unstolen in the first future, and Link has to go back to get them, leaving behind a world where five of the six sages were liberated and the hero of time simply vanished from time to acquire a needed tool. Thus we would have Ganondorf's victory, but also Sages empowered to stop him (creating the war referenced in LttP's backstory)


That reminds me... what's up with the Song of Storms? Link learns it in the the future from the windmill guy, but goes back in time to play it to him...

It's called a stable time loop, where continuity only makes sense because time travel occurred. Again, think Terminator 1: John Connor and Skynet both could not have existed unless Skynet tried to kill John Connor in the past and John Connor had not sent the man who ended up being his father back in time to stop that from happening. It makes no sense without the time travel, and similar to the Song of Storms: no Song of Storms without Link traveling back in time to demonstrate the Song of Storms.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

ClaudeLv250 on 01 November 2012
fordy said:

(This thread is meant to contain spoilers, so don't blame me if you read this and come across a part of the story you haven't reached yet)

 

 

I know this thread is a little late, considering we're approaching the 1 year mark of Skyward Sword. I stopped playing after the first temple with a distaste in the game, but only recently I've came back to it, and it's really grown on me. My favourite part is the return of the physical incarnation of the Triforce, and being able to actually acquire it. Must just be my obsession of treasures shaped like golden triangles. However, this is what baffles me (and it's probably already been discussed before). I want to get this off my chest, but my friends are even further behind in the game than I am.

The Triforce has always signified the ultimate power in the Zelda series. Only in three games I can count have wishes been granted from the Triforce (as a whole). In The Adventure of Link, the united Triforce awakens Zelda from her eternal slumber and reigns in an era of peace for Hyrule (and by most timeline theories, signals the end of the Zelda timeline). Same with Link to the Past. Not only did Ganon get a wish which turned the Golden Land into The Dark World, Link's wishes at the end bring people back from the dead. The third game is Skyward Sword, in where a wish is granted before the end of the game

So Link collects the pieces of the Triforce, unites them and makes the wish to destroy Demise. All good so far...but, shouldn't this signify the end of the game? Link is in posession of the ultimate power, and he lets Zelda get captured and sent into the past where Demise still resides. Surely if the Temple of Time resides, it's not outside the power of the Triforce to go back into the past and wish for Demise to be destroyed there, as well.

On a side note, the game focuses around the creation of the Master Sword, yet the Triforce is referred to as the ultimate power from "the old gods". Wouldn't they be (considering this would be a game for the start of the Zelda timeline) classed as more "newer" gods earlier in the timeline than say Ocarina of Time or Link to the Past? 

What you're asking for is the destruction of Demise in part/present/future, which would create a paradox as Demise would be wiped from the timeline. Skyloft would never be created and Link would never go on the journey to acquire the Triforce to make the wish in the first place.

As for the "old gods," Skyward Sword and some of the other newer Zeldas like Wind Waker have introduced more "gods" into the picture, and with Hylia being such a focus, it makes sense that they would classify Din/Farore/Nayru was the "old gods" from Hyrule's inception versus all the newer ones like Hylia that came somewhere down the line.

 

Mr Khan said:

The inconsistency in Skyward Sword seems to be in how they treat Time Travel. The revelation that Zelda had to go back in time to take the place of the Goddess to seal away Demise (and eventually be awakened by Link in the present again) implies a stable time-loop theory of time-travel, whereby traveling through time was required to create the status quo, similar to the story of the first Terminator film.
However, the finale of the game has Ghirahim go back in time with Zelda to revive Demise early on, and Link go back in time to kill Demise, which he did, in the past. That dicks with the whole thing, because if Demise was revived but then killed, he's never around to set the events of the game in motion in the first place, and there we have time paradox. Unless Link's victory created another split timeline, but that's a whole separate kettle of fish

Now THIS is what bothered me! If they had made some explanation, like Link sealing Demise's consciousness in the sword while leaving the mindless body to be sealed underground...that would have made sense to me. The way the game ends as it is doesn't make any sense...it contradicts its own establishment of time travel and the impact on the timeline.



Tag - "No trolling on my watch!"

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fordy on 01 November 2012
ClaudeLv250 said:

What you're asking for is the destruction of Demise in part/present/future, which would create a paradox as Demise would be wiped from the timeline. Skyloft would never be created and Link would never go on the journey to acquire the Triforce to make the wish in the first place.

As for the "old gods," Skyward Sword and some of the other newer Zeldas like Wind Waker have introduced more "gods" into the picture, and with Hylia being such a focus, it makes sense that they would classify Din/Farore/Nayru was the "old gods" from Hyrule's inception versus all the newer ones like Hylia that came somewhere down the line.

 


Wouldn't there be a paradox already in that if Ghirahim succeeds in reviving Demise in the past, he would not have the motive to do it in the present and therefore not go into the past? The game is already riddled with paradoxes. What I mentioned would only replace an already existing paradox with another.

 

I already explained the "old gods" in my above post. Why are those "new gods" no longer relevant in the games further down the series?



the_dengle on 01 November 2012

I got this, you guys. I got this.

Link forgot about the Triforce. He just forgot. That, or he knew he could take Ghirahim and Demise on his own, and wanted to impale them personally.



fordy on 01 November 2012
the_dengle said:
I got this, you guys. I got this.

Link forgot about the Triforce. He just forgot. That, or he knew he could take Ghirahim and Demise on his own, and wanted to impale them personally.


The Power trip from the Triforce of Power caused it! Then again you'd think that would have been counterbalanced from the Triforce of Wisdom. In the end, the Triforce of Courage was like "I'm not afraid, let's get him!"

Also, rather careless of him to leave the ultimate power lying around for anyone to grab...



the_dengle on 01 November 2012
fordy said:
the_dengle said:
I got this, you guys. I got this.

Link forgot about the Triforce. He just forgot. That, or he knew he could take Ghirahim and Demise on his own, and wanted to impale them personally.


The Power trip from the Triforce of Power caused it! Then again you'd think that would have been counterbalanced from the Triforce of Wisdom. In the end, the Triforce of Courage was like "I'm not afraid, let's get him!"

Also, rather careless of him to leave the ultimate power lying around for anyone to grab...

Again, he knew even if someone got ahold of the Triforce, he could take 'em.



fordy on 01 November 2012
the_dengle said:
fordy said:
the_dengle said:
I got this, you guys. I got this.

Link forgot about the Triforce. He just forgot. That, or he knew he could take Ghirahim and Demise on his own, and wanted to impale them personally.


The Power trip from the Triforce of Power caused it! Then again you'd think that would have been counterbalanced from the Triforce of Wisdom. In the end, the Triforce of Courage was like "I'm not afraid, let's get him!"

Also, rather careless of him to leave the ultimate power lying around for anyone to grab...

Again, he knew even if someone got ahold of the Triforce, he could take 'em.


Link became Vegeta!

"I wish to see your true form so I can fight it!"