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Why does VGC get a bad rap?

Forums - Sales Discussion - Why does VGC get a bad rap?

For those not around when IOI used to post on GAF:

He got a bad rap because he would make claims he never would back up. ie most of his numbers.  I'm not the official word on this but have been around gaf and the resultant sales age.  From what was percieved, he was just another poster with no ties nor contacts to get these types of numbers.  NPD is just another tracker but they have methods that are divulged.  How does IOI get his numbers?  Nobody knows.  Maybe he thinks it's a trade secret but if you don't know the source, how can you be sure?

 Could he ever prove that his numbers are legit?  I haven't been to this website for awhile but it's not the case where people hate IOI just for the hell of it.  They just didn't like him making up numbers w/o any sources.  There is a hell of a community on GAF that tries at guessing at these numbers and never pretends to be anything but guesses.  For the most part, people saw IOI as a big guesser who has made his site into something more. 

 Why would he do that?  I don't know and all my reasons would be guesses.  But I remember a big defense IOI put up was that his site was simple, didn't involve finances etc.  Now, I can't move on this site w/o seeing an ad.  But I'm just making a guess. 



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well because they think npd is always correct not knowing that they estimate too



tag:"reviews only matter for the real hardcore gamer"

skinnyrattler said:

For those not around when IOI used to post on GAF:

He got a bad rap because he would make claims he never would back up. ie most of his numbers. I'm not the official word on this but have been around gaf and the resultant sales age. From what was percieved, he was just another poster with no ties nor contacts to get these types of numbers. NPD is just another tracker but they have methods that are divulged. How does IOI get his numbers? Nobody knows. Maybe he thinks it's a trade secret but if you don't know the source, how can you be sure?

Could he ever prove that his numbers are legit? I haven't been to this website for awhile but it's not the case where people hate IOI just for the hell of it. They just didn't like him making up numbers w/o any sources. There is a hell of a community on GAF that tries at guessing at these numbers and never pretends to be anything but guesses. For the most part, people saw IOI as a big guesser who has made his site into something more.

Why would he do that? I don't know and all my reasons would be guesses. But I remember a big defense IOI put up was that his site was simple, didn't involve finances etc. Now, I can't move on this site w/o seeing an ad. But I'm just making a guess.


Regardless of what happened in the past the numbers posted for hardware are consistently in line with what other tracking firms put out (before they put out their data) and that holds true even when numbers come out different from what most might expect. Is it perfect? Nope, its also not claimed that it is either.

I agree where the numbers come from is important but regardless of that, a simple forum poster doesn't provide this kind of data at your fingertips on a moments notice on any forum afaik. You truly cannot deny that the features available on this site are far more powerful than anything else you can get without paying a monthly fee. So there is definitely a value to the service being provided here even if you choose to believe its nothing more than a regurgitation of NPD numbers.

As for methodology, to my knowledge the explanation NPD gives of their methodology is simply to say "We collect data from x% of retailers and use statistical inference to adjust for the remainder of the market.", where x fluctuates as they add and lose retailers. Which to my knowledge is precisely what ioi has said in the past. Anyone with a basic background in statistics understands that you don't need very large samples to get statistically meaningful data so it really wouldn't be difficult to sample 300 locations in the US and produce a sound statistical model. The difficult part is tweaking the model to account for regional market nuance and fluctuations.

 

As for the ads, he requires no money from anyone to come see any part of his site or use any feature. As someone who has built webservers from the ground up from hardware to software I can certainly understand a need to support bandwidth and server costs. If he should ever require users to pay or restricts features to "premium access only" you will have an excellent point and one I would agree with wholeheartedly.

 

It may very well be the case that ioi in the past was a simple forum poster with no extra knowledge. But that certainly doesn't preclude him from ever building a tracking service of his own and I think anyone who follows the data anywhere near as close as I have over the last 6 months would have a hard time questioning that that is exactly what he has done. But thats the sort of thing you have to see to believe and each person should trust the numbers or not trust the numbers for their own reasons. I say that because I know I wouldn't believe some guy telling me what to believe either so the only thing I can really do is tell you to approach it with a fair minded viewpoint.

Just give it a chance and you just might be surprised, after all...what do you have to lose but a bit of time...and you're posting on the internet so thats sort of moot really .

 

 



To Each Man, Responsibility

Well, when this site started ioi wasn't much reasonable about disclosing his sources and methodology - that didn't make much for vgcharts rep at neogaf. Also, the neogaf guys need to keep in good relationship with npd - so far the brief snippet they release monthly is the only reliable bit of american sales data they get and want to preserve it. Add 2+2 together and you'll see why vgchartz is banned over at neogaf.





Current-gen game collection uploaded on the profile, full of win and good games; also most of my PC games. Lucasfilm Games/LucasArts 1982-2008 (Requiescat In Pace).

Grey Acumen said:
fazz said:

I thought the Wii was the only one that had a bad rap

 

 

leo-j is probably gonna love this one, as he likes rap and hates the Wii lol

Holy crap, that was hilarious, and I like the Wii.

 

Also, what the hell is neogaf? Is that like 4chan?


NeoGAF is a game site. www.neogaf.com


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Bitmap Frogs said:
Well, when this site started ioi wasn't much reasonable about disclosing his sources and methodology - that didn't make much for vgcharts rep at neogaf. Also, the neogaf guys need to keep in good relationship with npd - so far the brief snippet they release monthly is the only reliable bit of american sales data they get and want to preserve it. Add 2+2 together and you'll see why vgchartz is banned over at neogaf.

Wait what do you mean by the "2+2" comment? Are you actually saying that they ban mentions of VGC for fear of reprisal from NPD?

To my knowledge there was a deal with GAF and NPD that resulted in the several pieces of info being released each month provided they would prevent people from posting all of their data through nefarious means. So it would seem NPD has more to lose than neogaf. Unless they traded the info on how the information was obtained for that priveledge?

But more to the point if NPD reprisal would come as a result of VGC acceptance then doesn't that essentially say that NPD feels threatened by VGC and thus lend it a certain amount of credability from the source most folks at neogaf consider the only trustworthy source?

I have a hard time believing NPD would even care about VGC if they honestly felt their numbers were off-base. If that were the case then each new release of data would prove this and it wouldn't take long for people to stop caring. But each new release of data consistently shows the two data sets to be within 10% of each other. Which when you consider that they are BOTH estimations means that they confirm each other.

Honestly I think neogaf has fallen into one of the many dangers of censorship. Which is that if people aren't allowed to discuss "it" then it only breeds ignorance of what cannot be discussed. I've discussed this issue with a number of people from neogaf before on this site and others and the one constant is that they always discuss what happened a year or more ago and generally know very little about what this site has done in the here and now. The reason is because as neogaf members they are never exposed to what really goes on over here or what the site is really about, instead they are exposed to a lot of hard feelings over something that happened a while ago and they only get one side of that argument.

VGC today is a lot different than VGC 6 months ago when I joined. VGC today is a helluva lot differnt than a year ago when I started lurking. However long ago this scuffle with ioi and gaf mods occurred I can tell you that a lot of things have changed, and from what I have seen neither side has really been communicating but just going off the last known scenario...which clearly doesn't apply anymore.

Perhaps its time for people to let go of the past and live in the here and now.  And in the here and now VGC data is out before NPD and they usually agree on hardware numbers (software is a whole other bag but I don't think anyone will argue that software has issues still).  In addition to just numbers are the tools and features to graph, chart, tabulate, etc... all of the data so that it is readily available.  I just have a hard time seeing how an argument from more than a year ago means an entire community turns their back on those features.



To Each Man, Responsibility
Sqrl said:
Bitmap Frogs said:
Well, when this site started ioi wasn't much reasonable about disclosing his sources and methodology - that didn't make much for vgcharts rep at neogaf. Also, the neogaf guys need to keep in good relationship with npd - so far the brief snippet they release monthly is the only reliable bit of american sales data they get and want to preserve it. Add 2+2 together and you'll see why vgchartz is banned over at neogaf.

Wait what do you mean by the "2+2" comment? Are you actually saying that they ban mentions of VGC for fear of reprisal from NPD?

To my knowledge there was a deal with GAF and NPD that resulted in the several pieces of info being released each month provided they would prevent people from posting all of their data through nefarious means. So it would seem NPD has more to lose than neogaf. Unless they traded the info on how the information was obtained for that priveledge?

But more to the point if NPD reprisal would come as a result of VGC acceptance then doesn't that essentially say that NPD feels threatened by VGC and thus lend it a certain amount of credability from the source most folks at neogaf consider the only trustworthy source?

I have a hard time believing NPD would even care about VGC if they honestly felt their numbers were off-base. If that were the case then each new release of data would prove this and it wouldn't take long for people to stop caring. But each new release of data consistently shows the two data sets to be within 10% of each other. Which when you consider that they are BOTH estimations means that they confirm each other.

Honestly I think neogaf has fallen into one of the many dangers of censorship. Which is that if people aren't allowed to discuss "it" then it only breeds ignorance of what cannot be discussed. I've discussed this issue with a number of people from neogaf before on this site and others and the one constant is that they always discuss what happened a year or more ago and generally know very little about what this site has done in the here and now. The reason is because as neogaf members they are never exposed to what really goes on over here or what the site is really about, instead they are exposed to a lot of hard feelings over something that happened a while ago and they only get one side of that argument.

VGC today is a lot different than VGC 6 months ago when I joined. VGC today is a helluva lot differnt than a year ago when I started lurking. However long ago this scuffle with ioi and gaf mods occurred I can tell you that a lot of things have changed, and from what I have seen neither side has really been communicating but just going off the last known scenario...which clearly doesn't apply anymore.


 It could be possible, NPD has made it know they do not like VGC.



Proud Member of GAIBoWS (Gamers Against Irrational Bans of Weezy & Squilliam)

                   

gebx said:

It could be possible, NPD has made it know they do not like VGC.


I absolutely agree that NPD has made it known that they are not fond of VGC.  And from what I have seen of David Riley (presuming it was him, personally I'm not 100% convinced), their feeling threatened would lend a whole heap of credability to this site.

 

Ok well let me back up for a second. Operating under the assumption that NPD doesn't like VGC there are only so many conclusions you can draw:

1) NPD is run by a bunch of idiots who feel threatened by VGC even though they don't think its accurate.

2) NPD feels VGC is accurate enough to be a threat and accordingly they attempt to protect their interest.

 

I have a hard time believing the first scenario which sort of leaves one option.



To Each Man, Responsibility

There is only one thing you cannot discuss here at VGC.

(a certain Ferrari driver and his non-deservedness)



Hamilton deserved to lose. Silly ioi making up the numbers like he makes up the rules for racing!