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Forums - General Discussion - You Don't Necessarily Owe God Anything

DaRev said:


You do realise that many Scientists have come to the conclusion that there MUST be a creator - right?

And how do rationalise or understand the belief that there is a creator, but don't understand that he has the ability to love his creation?

Like I said, I can understand if a person believes in a creator, but what supports the fact that there's only one creator, that he's omnibeloved, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, that he had a 'plan' for humans, etc. How do you know he didn't just create the universe because he was bored? I could paint a picture, but that doesn't mean I love it. Maybe he hails from a family of different Gods and just created this universe to impress his friends? Specifically, I want to know what makes the Christian God the most valid interpretation of this supposed creator. 



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DaRev said:
Jay520 said:
DaRev said:


I understand your point, which is a good one, but I still disagree. I'll have to think about this a bit more and READ MY BIBLE, cause it has all the answers


How can you disagree if you can't answer why? Do you not understand your own beliefs?


lol, I understand my beliefs. The difference between me and you it seems is that I consult my sources and not just talk off the top of my head just for argument sake. But I can give you dishonest answers that are based on nothing but what's in my ass if you like.

You said you disagree, yet you gave no justification for it. That seems like you don't understand your beliefs imo. 



DaRev said:

 (1) (1) We are being punished right now, but through repentance and acceptance of God’s son Jesus you can be forgiven of your sins, even before you die. Death signals the end of humans having the ability to REPENT for their sins. God is not incapable of anything, however, he being a just God has set his rules in place and will follow them, because if he doesn’t he will be breaking his own rules. If you read ROMANS 6 in the bible you will see where it says that we should suffer NOW a SPIRITUAL death, before our physical death, so that we can be forgiven for our sins. Again it is your perception of that blinds you. God uses death as something good (yeah I know it sounds strange) since it takes us out of this world of stress, misery, sin and ultimately death – which is a good thin

2)    (2) God didn’t design humans to fail or sin. The point is that with choice comes the ability for humans to sin, but that doesn’t mean that God designed or wants us to sin. Moreover, God knowing our propensity to sin, had a PLAN OF SALVATION through his son Jesus. So God loved us and provided for even before Adam and Eve sined.

3)    (3) See (1) above. Yes, one must come to the acceptance of God before you die to escape his judgment, but God offers you that opportunity now. That is not a limitation on God because he doesn’t forgive you after you die, but that he is a just God that will follow his own rules.

As for God’s parenting vs that of Humans the bible at Isaiah 55:8-9 says:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

 

1.) You are doing nothing to prove that the punishment is fair. Yes, we can repent, and yes, we can be forgiven (only at a certain time though). But that still doesn't negate the fact that the punishment is unfair to begin with. The punishment should have never existed. God designed humans to sin. He shouldn't punish humans for doing something that He designed them to do.

2.) You said earlier that no matter what a human does, they will sin. That means sinning is a part of their inherent nature; it's not something that they choose.  Otherwise, a human would have the ability to choose not to sin (but as you said, humans cannot do so, because they're human). If something is inherent, then it must have been designed by the creator.

3.) God is incapable of forgiving a person who doesn't accept him, period. That shows limitations. It doesn't matter if he created some 'rule' that he must follow, it's still a limitation.



ninetailschris said:

Quote of the week. [I will put in my sig at some point because how much of a facepalm I had)

"Sure, the Bible says that he "rested" on the seventh day, but given how that would prove that he is not "fully" almighty"

 

rest·edrest·ingrests
v.intr.
1. To cease motion, work, or activity.
Just stop. Just stop. 
Then God blessed the seventh day and made it [holy],because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
He was finished and didn't do anything else that day being it was the Holy Day in which your suppose to do relax( do nothing important but give thanks to God). Come on ... basic reading ability(context clues) and defintions would tell you that. But just in case.
 Sunday in jewish  tradition is the day you relax and don't do work. This is the day you give thanks to God's creation. This is the day you don't work. 
So, let's think real hard when it says  he rested... did he  A) Felt tired   B) Used all of his ability  3) Just stopped because he was done and was proclaimed the day of rest for everyone.
No, it wasn't A it's was C better luck next time. Read up on [Sabbath] you may learn something.
Btw I used that verse because that's one you probably remember you probably don't know the verse before. lol
2 [By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing]; [so on] the seventh day he rested from all his work.
^ LOL
^ Don't believe me? Read it yourself. Becareful not make obvious screw ups like this one.
Well, I'm off I doubt you will respond to anything that makes you look like you have no crediability like always. I had fun with this one because of how obviously flawed. Still loling at how you said that Abarham not fully trusting  God was a contradiction and when I asked how you had nothing. xD
Go read on bible before making topics and look up background information to make sure topics like these don't happen. Plus use some common sense.

 

1. You can't just put things that people say on these forums into your signature; you always have to ask for approval. Read the forum rules.

2. Why would they say that God rested on the seventh day if it did not include recovering? Why not say that God rested for all eternity? Well, because as you said: Then God blessed the seventh day and made it [holy],because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Which indicates that he stopped resting the following day. So why would he need that day-off in the first place if he was almighty? My answer is that the people who wrote that story didn't think that through properly.

3."Still loling at how you said that Abarham not fully trusting  God was a contradiction and when I asked how you had nothing. xD"

The answer was painfully obvious and I had already pointed it out. One one hand Abraham is the symbol of trusting - and following God's orders after completing the ultimate test, but on the other he doubted God's orders and eventually followed them through after finding a contradiction in what God had said. Finding that contradiction should not have been necessary if he truly trusted God unconditionally.

Still, this isn't that thread and you are going off-topic with that statement.

 

I would answer to the rest of your essay if it was an actual response to the topic. Instead, all I see is some (we have been over this before) twisted assumptions, misinterpretations and accusations. Some of which are even borderline trolling.

If you can't even stay civil, don't expect me to take you seriously.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
ninetailschris said:

Quote of the week. [I will put in my sig at some point because how much of a facepalm I had)

"Sure, the Bible says that he "rested" on the seventh day, but given how that would prove that he is not "fully" almighty"

 

rest·edrest·ingrests
v.intr.
1. To cease motion, work, or activity.
Just stop. Just stop. 
Then God blessed the seventh day and made it [holy],because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
He was finished and didn't do anything else that day being it was the Holy Day in which your suppose to do relax( do nothing important but give thanks to God). Come on ... basic reading ability(context clues) and defintions would tell you that. But just in case.
 Sunday in jewish  tradition is the day you relax and don't do work. This is the day you give thanks to God's creation. This is the day you don't work. 
So, let's think real hard when it says  he rested... did he  A) Felt tired   B) Used all of his ability  3) Just stopped because he was done and was proclaimed the day of rest for everyone.
No, it wasn't A it's was C better luck next time. Read up on [Sabbath] you may learn something.
Btw I used that verse because that's one you probably remember you probably don't know the verse before. lol
2 [By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing]; [so on] the seventh day he rested from all his work.
^ LOL
^ Don't believe me? Read it yourself. Becareful not make obvious screw ups like this one.
Well, I'm off I doubt you will respond to anything that makes you look like you have no crediability like always. I had fun with this one because of how obviously flawed. Still loling at how you said that Abarham not fully trusting  God was a contradiction and when I asked how you had nothing. xD
Go read on bible before making topics and look up background information to make sure topics like these don't happen. Plus use some common sense.

 

1. You can't just put things that people say on these forums into your signature; you always have to ask for approval. Read the forum rules.

2. Why would they say that God rested on the seventh day if it did not include recovering? Why not say that God rested for all eternity? Well, because as you said: Then God blessed the seventh day and made it [holy],because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.


Which indicates that he stopped resting the following day. So why would he need that day-off in the first place if he was almighty?

I would answer to the rest of your essay if it was an actual response to the topic. Instead, all I see is some (we have been over this before) twisted assumptions, misinterpretations and accusations. Some of which are even borderline trolling.

If you can't even stay civil, don't expect me to take you seriously.





What can I say, it makes me laugh.

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DaRev said:
Jay520 said:
DaRev said:


I understand your point, which is a good one, but I still disagree. I'll have to think about this a bit more and READ MY BIBLE, cause it has all the answers


How can you disagree if you can't answer why? Do you not understand your own beliefs?


lol, I understand my beliefs. The difference between me and you it seems is that I consult my sources and not just talk off the top of my head just for argument sake. But I can give you dishonest answers that are based on nothing but what's in my ass if you like

Anyways, here is my answer. I disagree because whether you chose right or wrong doesn’t equate to an imperfect design to love. Adam chose wrong because he was influenced to disobey God, not because he was designed imperfectly.

Moreover, I think there is a distinction between (1) God designing a perfect human being (so far as a human beings are concerned), and (2) a human that is incapable of sin and choosing not to love God. God did not design humans with the inability to not love him.

With regard the former, perfection is achieved by God’s initial design and his omnipotence. With regards the latter, one can only achieve perfection with God’s help.  



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

Jay520 said:
DaRev said:


You do realise that many Scientists have come to the conclusion that there MUST be a creator - right?

And how do rationalise or understand the belief that there is a creator, but don't understand that he has the ability to love his creation?

Like I said, I can understand if a person believes in a creator, but what supports the fact that there's only one creator, that he's omnibeloved, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, that he had a 'plan' for humans, etc. How do you know he didn't just create the universe because he was bored? I could paint a picture, but that doesn't mean I love it. Maybe he hails from a family of different Gods and just created this universe to impress his friends? Specifically, I want to know what makes the Christian God the most valid interpretation of this supposed creator. 

WoW another good question,...Well, here is where I think you run into one of those walls, that if you don't apply faith from here on you cannot get answers to most of those questions. A lot of what the bible explains is spiritual and also is based on experience.

For example, one way I believe in the truth of the bible is because I read it and it makes sense to me, after I have pieced together the parts of the puzzel. Does that sound crazy? Anyways, one way I like to prove the authentisity of the bible is by using the fact that it contains witness statements of people that lived around the time of Jesus, i.e. the accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John aka the Gospels. Historians also prove the authentisity of the Bible over any other religious document by showing how it was complied date-wise closest to the actual events. Ultimately you will need to look at Apologetics if you want to gether all the factual evidence of why the Bible is more authentic that any other religious book. See this link:  http://www.bethinking.org/bible-jesus/the-historicity-of-the-new-testament.htm

I'm going to do my own reading and get back to you!

 



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

Jay520 said:
DaRev said:


2) You got a limited view of God's PLAN OF SALVATION. You're only focusing on the punishment. It like a child being tought it the rights and wrongs of life, and when scolded because they chose wrong, decides their parent doesn't love them because they were punished. The fact of punishment doesn't mean that a parent or teacher or God doesn't love you. Punishment is PART of the solution that brings you to realization of whether something is wrong or right.


There are two stark differences between a parent's punishment and God's punishment.

1.) A parent's punishment is temporary and is meant to discourage future bad behavior. After an effective punishment session, a child leaves a better person and can make the world a better place perhaps by helping others. God's punishment is eternal and does not allow the person to ever learn a lesson. Apparently God is incapable of forgiveness after you die. God's punishment brings you to no salvation. Even if you reach a realization after your punishment, then it doesn't matter - you'll be punished forever. On the other hand, if you come to a realization after your parent's punishment, then s/he will likely discontinue the punishment. Why doesn't God do the same for changed people?

2.) God punishes people for things that He designed them to do - sin. We've already agreed that sin is intrinsically associated with humans; since they cannot live without God and without sin. Since Humans didn't design their inherent nature, the creator must be God. This means that God is designing humans for doing what He made them do. No competent parent would punish a child for doing something that they influenced the child to do. Why can't God do the same.

3.) There's a major limitation in God's power. It seems that once you die, if you haven't accepted God, then God is incapable of forgiving you. He completely lacks the ability to forgive you. He can't even forgive you if you've changed your ways after Hell.

Also, I find it funny that you compare God's PLAN OF SALVATION to the parenting strategies of humans. What's even funnier is the fact that God's plan seems inferior.

God`s punishment is also temporary... when you are alive. And not only purifies sins but also shows that what you have done something wrong.
In life, you have every chance to change. Every chance to repent and suffer the consequences in this life.
And there is nothing that God won`t forgive. Nothing at all.

God didn`t design people to sin or be saints. He made us in His image: to be good - isn`t that what is best about us? But He also gaves the ability to choose something over Him. How would you feel if you had to risk losing someone for the sake of letting that someone find their own path and hopefully not only love you back but to save themselves?

God is not incapable of forgiving. Punishment is Justice. God doesn`t stop loving you, you were the one who decided you didn`t want Him. And God, respecting that, gives exactly what you wanted. If Jesus died for every single one of us, you can be sure that everyone of us is loved by Him.
All the things He showed us to be good or bad, all the warnings, Jesus, all the apparitions and miracles, aren`t hollow, they are a sign of His love.
If you really want to know if God is read the Bible carefully and listen to what He said, when He said it. If you want proof that He is still around, check for marian apparitions, as not all apparitions are reflections on walls or windows.



DaRev said:
Jay520 said:
DaRev said:
Jay520 said:

Perhaps, but the same could be said for God. Both the BBT and the creationist theory propose that something happened for no reason (well, actually proponents of the BBT don't believe something happened for no reason; they're still investigating the origins of the universe). What makes the BBT more valid is the fact that it doesn't assume the existence of extra beings which we have no evidence of.

If you think there's evidence of a creator, then fine. But how do you know there is only one creator? And how do you know that creator is conscious, all-knowing, all-powerful, and most importantly, all-loving? I mean...how can you add all these traits to it? Saying there was a creator is alerady a stretch, but to add such random traits like being all-loving is ridiculous. It's not necessary to support your audience and just makes it seem even more unbelievable.

Just because we don't know something, doesn't mean we HAVE to jump to a conclusion and blame God. 


Well, you do need some FAITH to answer those questions. Problem is that many people don't have faith. Do you belive there are black holes out in space? Or do you believe in anything you have never or would never see?


You do not need faith to believe in the Big Bang Theory, at least not much of it. The universe is shown now to be expanding. Logic suggest that if you go back in time, the universe would shrink. And if you go back far enough, then you will reach a singular point. 

On the other hand, where is the evidenece for the Christian God. Some people believe there must have been a creator, that's fine. But where is the evidence for only one God? Where is the evidence that He's all powerful? Where is the evidence that He knows everthing? Where is the evidence that He even loves at all, let alone is all-loving. Also, there are dozens upon dozens of interpretations of what the creator(s) supposedly is. Needless to say, the faith required to believe in God is exponentionally greater than the faith required to believe in things live black holes.

When scientists from different times and different parts of the world all agree that there all black holes, and they agree on what black holes actually are, then it's safe to believe they are true. However, no one can point to evidence that there is a creator that's singular, omnibeloved, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, conscious, and eternal, then you could compare the Christian God to Black Holes. AND once everyone can agree on the structure and function of God, then you could compare the Christian God to Black Holes.

Like I said, I can understand the belief in a creator. But to add all those traits is unjustified.


You do realise that many Scientists have come to the conclusion that there MUST be a creator - right?

And how do rationalise or understand the belief that there is a creator, but don't understand that he has the ability to love his creation?


Funny thing is even a pin has to be made by someone. It does not come to existence of its own. But this whole world, the herbs, animals, planets, water etc all came into existence without any creator. It's a crazy thinking and sometimes I can't believe a person, reading science etc, can't understand this simple matter.

 

Stop judging religion by Bible alone. Bible has many scientific flaws because some of its parts are fabricated (this is proved by 52 christian scholers of highest eminent). Read Quran, the last revelation sent by God and you will see it is compatible with science or the science is compatible with it. It is not fabricated as it is available in its original language sent 1400 years before and millions of Muslims memorize it by heart from first to last. 

 

Suppose, there is no God, then we all lead our lives and then die, nothing to worry about. But if there is, then after death we cannot return to change our fate. It is this world where we have to act. And afterlife, that is the day of judgment.



Will these religion threads ever stop ?

I don't think so >.>

OT: If there's a god(s) that's good for him, her, it or them but I don't own him, her, it or them anything. He, she, it or they don't care about me or anyone else, so I don't don't care about *insert grammatical persons* either.