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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Wii U specs and performance matter, and Nintendo knows this

archbrix said:
NintendoPie said:
Sal.Paradise said:

If you can find otherwise I'd be happy to be proven wrong! The 720p thing is what I find on a google search about it though, with an interview with a Nintendo rep. 

Hm, I really thought there was an article that showed us that Lineup games would run 1080... maybe not. :/

You might be thinking of the news that Batman: AC and Assassin's Creed 3 will run in native 1080p, which was confirmed by a Nintendo rep.

Unfortunately, Nintendo's 1st party launch window lineup are native 720p, which is really disappointing to me; primarily because they should be setting an example for other companies.  They'll still look good, but there's little reason that at least Nintendoland and Mario shouldn't be native 1080p.

They're probably aiming for a crisp 60fps vs eye candy, this is Nintendo after all. They will probably have full 1080p games somewhere down the line. 



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IamAwsome said:
archbrix said:
NintendoPie said:
Sal.Paradise said:

If you can find otherwise I'd be happy to be proven wrong! The 720p thing is what I find on a google search about it though, with an interview with a Nintendo rep. 

Hm, I really thought there was an article that showed us that Lineup games would run 1080... maybe not. :/

You might be thinking of the news that Batman: AC and Assassin's Creed 3 will run in native 1080p, which was confirmed by a Nintendo rep.

Unfortunately, Nintendo's 1st party launch window lineup are native 720p, which is really disappointing to me; primarily because they should be setting an example for other companies.  They'll still look good, but there's little reason that at least Nintendoland and Mario shouldn't be native 1080p.

They're probably aiming for a crisp 60fps vs eye candy, this is Nintendo after all. They will probably have full 1080p games somewhere down the line. 

I'm sure that's the case, and they'll still look great in 720p.  It just kinda irks me that a game with relatively "simple" graphics like NSMBU isn't taking advantage of the fact that it could easily run in native 1080p, considering it's one of Nintendo's flagship titles.

If we were talking about a graphically intensive 8th gen Metroid Prime, then it would be a trade-off - and a very wise one - to sacrifice 1080p resolution for a solid 60fps.



happydolphin said:
oniyide said:

Looks at Wii non-Ninty sales, yep they sure are buying those games, jking. But who are these people that grew up on WIi?? I think you would be surprised how much of those people have another console. Yes im talking about the kids, id bet there are more of them who own a PS3 or 360 as well than the ones who own just a WIi. Unless you are talking about the really young children.  And then of course the soccer mom demographic that arent exactly jumping for joy at the thought of playing Batman on Wii U.

Well, I do think it's safe to assume that a good portion of homes can't afford more than one dedicated video game console, it's say at lest 25 to 33 percent. If they have lots of kids, they most probably opted for a Wii as fun for the whole family. So ultimately, these kids will want the revision, while having older tastes.


I disagree, we are talking about consoles that have been on the market for 5 and event  6 years, thats a while. It wasnt like that Wii was expensive at all, so i believe that alot of people bought that intially. As years went by they bought another console. when the prices of the HDs dropped, hell PS3 has been selling over 100k pratically every week all year long. and peopel are still buying 360s in the US. I would say 20 25 percent thats me



Hisiru said:
darkknightkryta said:

Article still didn't say who ported the engine over, and as far as Unreal 4 goes, it depends if they keep it open source for the liscensees.  If it's open source, then it can be ported over, but without official support from Epic, it won't be an easy task.  Plus there's a reason why Epic isn't doing it themselves, my hunch is because they probably can't get everything running.  And about the last article, I know the Wii U is going to be a well made machine, I've been saying that this whole thread.  Nintendo is trying to balance power vs cost, which isn't a bad thing.

There is no such thing as "who ported the engine over" or "it depends if they keep it open source". If any developer buys the engine's license, they will be able to develop for any platform which has the minimum specs, and it's not as hard as youre making it sound. "Offical support" from Epic doesn't really matter in the end, as I said before, Epic had no intentions of supporting the Wii at all, but developers like Ubisoft was using UE2 on the system because they bought the license and there is nothing stopping them from developing a game for the Wii as long as it has the minimum specs.

Yes, there is a reason why Epic isn't doing it themselves, they wan't to say their engine is too powerful for Nintendo platforms even if it can handle the engine, just like it was too powerful to run on android devices before. This is one of the easiest ways to hype your engine and make developers believe its a "true next gen engine" when in reality it's just a good engine to reduce development time. However, even if Epic doesn't help, devs can do it without any problems as long as the system has the minimum specs and it's not as difficult as youre making it sound, it would be difficult for devs if the WiiU doesn't have the minimun specs, they would need to change the engine's basics, but if the system has the minimum specs, nothing needs to be changed on the engine itself.

As for the bolded part, any modern 2009~2010 GPU has all the feature set to run any next gen engine and it doesn't really matter what Epic says. They just don't want to say the WiiU is going to have UE4 games because they don't see money coming from it, but with or without Epic, developers who bought the license will develop UE4 games for all the next three platforms without any problems because it's convenient, they don't need Epic's approval or Epic's help to do that. Also, Epic already said it will be possible to port UE4 games for the WiiU (so the engine will run on the WiiU just fine) and they also said the engine will be "supremely scalable", so it has nothing to do with power, you can already exclude this option.

All we need is good third party sales for games like Assassin's Creed 3, and then we will see even more support for the system.

Alright let's talk about some misconceptions you have.  First: Porting code from one system to another is a pain in the ass.  I know from experience.  Epic hasn't made Unreal 4 for the Wii-U, you'd have to take the code from PC which is using Direct X, or from the PS4 using Open GL.  More problems you'll come into will be system libraries that won't work on the WIi-U, hardware differences, cutting back effects, etc, months of that alone for a single version of the engine.  Updated engine will take just as long and be as much as a headache.  I personally take the Unreal 4 claims that Mark Rein made as the same with Unreal 3 and the Wii.  He mentions how someone may be able to squeeze Unreal 3 to the Wii the same way Ubisoft squeezed Unreal 2 into the PSP.  Too lazy to look for true, but I'm sure they were probably the only ones able to do that since they've molded Unreal 2 quite extensively on the PS2/PS3/360.  Hell Bioshock, Splinter Cell, all running Unreal 2.  Second: As far as any modern GPU made from 2009-2010 running Unreal 4 to the specs that they've shown, I'm going to say no.  I have a modern card in my tower, mid range GTX 560 Ti, Arkham City near max settings with medium physics makes the game have slowdowns and that's Unreal 3.  For comparison purposes Epic had their Sammartarian demo running on 3 GTX 580s.  Will games run on any run of the mill 09 card?  Of course, with medium settings, might as well play the game on PS3/360 at that point.  Which re-iterates back to Unreal 4 and Wii-U, most likely has to be trimmed down to get it running well, especially if the Wii-U's ram is at a pultry 1.5 gigs, which you've mentioned.  And Unreal 4 is very new tech, a dev will have to spare a lot of resources to put into porting the engine over just for the Wii-U and if Epic makes updates, those updates have to ported over as well by the dev, if at all possible.  That's just not cost effective.



spurgeonryan said:
Sal.Paradise said:

"it's clear that the company is taking HD seriously this time around."

Are they? I mean, you have a 2d platformer and a game originally planned for Wii and they don't even output 1080p?
I see people defending this as, well....you know..it's hard, cut 'em some slack! Or, hey, casuals don't care about the difference in resolution! Well that's not taking HD seriously enough for me.


I was going to be impressed that you read through the whole thing, but then I realized you copies and paste the first sentence. Sort of.

They are bringing over a hell of a lot of ports from the HD consoles and jazzing them up a bit. Zombie U looks nice, and there are a lot of other games coming out that are looking pretty Niiice as well. I think for Nintendo they are taking it seriously, but the other guys are still sort of in a league of their own when it comes to dealing with Power.

I remember when Nintendo were top in power. Nes, Snes and N64. For me Nintendos best years. Mario 64, OOT, DKC, Perfect Dark, Super Metroid, Starfox, Starfox 64, 1080 Snowboarding, Waverace 64 all blew me away. And still imo not beaten by Ninty themselves to this day. I loved Nintendo then.



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Performance does matter, but it matters to a smaller and smaller percentage of gamers and game developers with every generation ... To use rough numbers, the percentage of games that were limited by processing power of the following systems


Atari/Colecovision/Intellivision 100%
NES/Sega Master System 90%
SNES/Genesis 80%
Playstion/N64/Saturn 60%
Playstation/XBox/Gamecube/Dreamcast 40%
PS3/XBox 360 20%

To understand what I mean by this, a game like Tetris can obviously be developed to take full advantage of the available processing power of bleeding edge hardware but the "core" of the game is just as good on a $5000 PC as it was on the NES. One of my biggest disappointments in the last generation was when this occurred to me, and that was because I was playing a game that had advanced dramatically in visuals but had very similar gameplay as a game that was released in 1998.

As much as I would love to see what a developer could do with a system that had 2 Radeon HD 7970 graphics cards hooked up in crossfire, I realize that this graphical processing power (mostly) represent fluff at this point in time.



selnor said:
spurgeonryan said:
Sal.Paradise said:

"it's clear that the company is taking HD seriously this time around."

Are they? I mean, you have a 2d platformer and a game originally planned for Wii and they don't even output 1080p?
I see people defending this as, well....you know..it's hard, cut 'em some slack! Or, hey, casuals don't care about the difference in resolution! Well that's not taking HD seriously enough for me.


I was going to be impressed that you read through the whole thing, but then I realized you copies and paste the first sentence. Sort of.

They are bringing over a hell of a lot of ports from the HD consoles and jazzing them up a bit. Zombie U looks nice, and there are a lot of other games coming out that are looking pretty Niiice as well. I think for Nintendo they are taking it seriously, but the other guys are still sort of in a league of their own when it comes to dealing with Power.

I remember when Nintendo were top in power. Nes, Snes and N64. For me Nintendos best years. Mario 64, OOT, DKC, Perfect Dark, Super Metroid, Starfox, Starfox 64, 1080 Snowboarding, Waverace 64 all blew me away. And still imo not beaten by Ninty themselves to this day. I loved Nintendo then.

The NES was not the top in power, the SNES was also not top in power due to the NeoGeo, and given it released 2 years after the Megadrive it's quite easy for it to top that. The N64 was the top dog at least but similar to SNES release it launched 1.5 years after the other two major competitors (1 year late could be a delayed machine, but 1.5 probably indicates the console development started later than competitors... though we don't need to make that assumption with N64 as we know a little of the history in that Nintendo was working with Sony to make a SNES CD, the origins of the PSX date well back before the N64, although it was slow to develop due to being a new project a lot of work was done before the N64 even started development).

Nintendo have never strived to be "bleeding edge" like Sony have... they haven't made a leap as deliberately small as with the Wii before but the doesn't mean the opposite is true for their earlier consoles, it's more the staggered nature of the generation leap as well as Nintendo's own success that caused them to be at the graphical high end for SNES to GC (meaning competitors were releasing consoles considered as part of the new gen while Nintendo was still able to sell NES and SNES)

Even if Nintendo went bleeding edge with the Wii U, with it releasing a good year before Nextbox/PS4 the best it could be is equal in graphical capability to the other two (and that's assuming that Sony/MS didn't push any boundaries)



darkknightkryta said:
Hisiru said:
darkknightkryta said:

Article still didn't say who ported the engine over, and as far as Unreal 4 goes, it depends if they keep it open source for the liscensees.  If it's open source, then it can be ported over, but without official support from Epic, it won't be an easy task.  Plus there's a reason why Epic isn't doing it themselves, my hunch is because they probably can't get everything running.  And about the last article, I know the Wii U is going to be a well made machine, I've been saying that this whole thread.  Nintendo is trying to balance power vs cost, which isn't a bad thing.

There is no such thing as "who ported the engine over" or "it depends if they keep it open source". If any developer buys the engine's license, they will be able to develop for any platform which has the minimum specs, and it's not as hard as youre making it sound. "Offical support" from Epic doesn't really matter in the end, as I said before, Epic had no intentions of supporting the Wii at all, but developers like Ubisoft was using UE2 on the system because they bought the license and there is nothing stopping them from developing a game for the Wii as long as it has the minimum specs.

Yes, there is a reason why Epic isn't doing it themselves, they wan't to say their engine is too powerful for Nintendo platforms even if it can handle the engine, just like it was too powerful to run on android devices before. This is one of the easiest ways to hype your engine and make developers believe its a "true next gen engine" when in reality it's just a good engine to reduce development time. However, even if Epic doesn't help, devs can do it without any problems as long as the system has the minimum specs and it's not as difficult as youre making it sound, it would be difficult for devs if the WiiU doesn't have the minimun specs, they would need to change the engine's basics, but if the system has the minimum specs, nothing needs to be changed on the engine itself.

As for the bolded part, any modern 2009~2010 GPU has all the feature set to run any next gen engine and it doesn't really matter what Epic says. They just don't want to say the WiiU is going to have UE4 games because they don't see money coming from it, but with or without Epic, developers who bought the license will develop UE4 games for all the next three platforms without any problems because it's convenient, they don't need Epic's approval or Epic's help to do that. Also, Epic already said it will be possible to port UE4 games for the WiiU (so the engine will run on the WiiU just fine) and they also said the engine will be "supremely scalable", so it has nothing to do with power, you can already exclude this option.

All we need is good third party sales for games like Assassin's Creed 3, and then we will see even more support for the system.

 

Alright let's talk about some misconceptions you have.  First: Porting code from one system to another is a pain in the ass.  I know from experience.  Epic hasn't made Unreal 4 for the Wii-U, you'd have to take the code from PC which is using Direct X, or from the PS4 using Open GL.  More problems you'll come into will be system libraries that won't work on the WIi-U, hardware differences, cutting back effects, etc, months of that alone for a single version of the engine.  Updated engine will take just as long and be as much as a headache.  I personally take the Unreal 4 claims that Mark Rein made as the same with Unreal 3 and the Wii.  He mentions how someone may be able to squeeze Unreal 3 to the Wii the same way Ubisoft squeezed Unreal 2 into the PSP.  Too lazy to look for true, but I'm sure they were probably the only ones able to do that since they've molded Unreal 2 quite extensively on the PS2/PS3/360.  Hell Bioshock, Splinter Cell, all running Unreal 2.  Second: As far as any modern GPU made from 2009-2010 running Unreal 4 to the specs that they've shown, I'm going to say no.  I have a modern card in my tower, mid range GTX 560 Ti, Arkham City near max settings with medium physics makes the game have slowdowns and that's Unreal 3.  For comparison purposes Epic had their Sammartarian demo running on 3 GTX 580s.  Will games run on any run of the mill 09 card?  Of course, with medium settings, might as well play the game on PS3/360 at that point.  Which re-iterates back to Unreal 4 and Wii-U, most likely has to be trimmed down to get it running well, especially if the Wii-U's ram is at a pultry 1.5 gigs, which you've mentioned.  And Unreal 4 is very new tech, a dev will have to spare a lot of resources to put into porting the engine over just for the Wii-U and if Epic makes updates, those updates have to ported over as well by the dev, if at all possible.  That's just not cost effective.

"More problems you'll come into will be system libraries that won't work on the WIi-U, hardware differences, cutting back effects, etc, months of that alone for a single version of the engine.  "

"Updated engine will take just as long and be as much as a headache. "

 I am sorry if I am being rude, but now youre just making hasty assumptions, aren't you?

"I personally take the Unreal 4 claims that Mark Rein made as the same with Unreal 3 and the Wii."

 No, he never said devs would be able to port UE3 games for the Wii. Now he said "you can port UE4 games for the WiiU if you want".  it's a totally different situation.

"Second: As far as any modern GPU made from 2009-2010 running Unreal 4 to the specs that they've shown, I'm going to say no.  I have a modern card in my tower, mid range GTX 560 Ti, Arkham City near max settings with medium physics makes the game have slowdowns and that's Unreal 3." 

Now youre using your bad performance in order to say its not possible to run the game. They could simply tone down the game just to run on your hardware, which means your hardware is capable of running the engine, maybe it's not the graphics you want, but the game/engine is running just fine.

"For comparison purposes Epic had their Sammartarian demo running on 3 GTX 580s.  Will games run on any run of the mill 09 card?  Of course, with medium settings, might as well play the game on PS3/360 at that point. "

Same as above.

"Which re-iterates back to Unreal 4 and Wii-U, most likely has to be trimmed down to get it running well"
Again, the engine is very scalable, and we still need to see the final specs (which can't be worse then what we already have). 

"And Unreal 4 is very new tech, a dev will have to spare a lot of resources to put into porting the engine over just for the Wii-U and if Epic makes updates, those updates have to ported over as well by the dev, if at all possible.  That's just not cost effective."
I completely disagree with you. Ubisoft already said it costs something around 1~2M to port HD games for the WiiU and it just needs to sell 150~200k (at $30) in order to give a good profit, it's easy money and it's worth the effort for sure.

Now let's take a look at his words again:
"but Unreal Engine 4 is going to be supremely scalable. We’ll run on mobile phones and on a wide variety of things, so if a customer decides they want to port an Unreal Engine 4 game to Wii U, they could."
You see? He never said developers will need to port the engine (as you are trying to imply), he only said devs will be able to port games, and that it's a very scalable engine.
However I am not veeery worried about it because the so called "next gen game" Star Wars 1313 is running on Unreal Engine 3 and Watch Dogs is running on Ubisoft's new engine.


Hisiru said:
darkknightkryta said:

Alright let's talk about some misconceptions you have.  First: Porting code from one system to another is a pain in the ass.  I know from experience.  Epic hasn't made Unreal 4 for the Wii-U, you'd have to take the code from PC which is using Direct X, or from the PS4 using Open GL.  More problems you'll come into will be system libraries that won't work on the WIi-U, hardware differences, cutting back effects, etc, months of that alone for a single version of the engine.  Updated engine will take just as long and be as much as a headache.  I personally take the Unreal 4 claims that Mark Rein made as the same with Unreal 3 and the Wii.  He mentions how someone may be able to squeeze Unreal 3 to the Wii the same way Ubisoft squeezed Unreal 2 into the PSP.  Too lazy to look for true, but I'm sure they were probably the only ones able to do that since they've molded Unreal 2 quite extensively on the PS2/PS3/360.  Hell Bioshock, Splinter Cell, all running Unreal 2.  Second: As far as any modern GPU made from 2009-2010 running Unreal 4 to the specs that they've shown, I'm going to say no.  I have a modern card in my tower, mid range GTX 560 Ti, Arkham City near max settings with medium physics makes the game have slowdowns and that's Unreal 3.  For comparison purposes Epic had their Sammartarian demo running on 3 GTX 580s.  Will games run on any run of the mill 09 card?  Of course, with medium settings, might as well play the game on PS3/360 at that point.  Which re-iterates back to Unreal 4 and Wii-U, most likely has to be trimmed down to get it running well, especially if the Wii-U's ram is at a pultry 1.5 gigs, which you've mentioned.  And Unreal 4 is very new tech, a dev will have to spare a lot of resources to put into porting the engine over just for the Wii-U and if Epic makes updates, those updates have to ported over as well by the dev, if at all possible.  That's just not cost effective.

"More problems you'll come into will be system libraries that won't work on the WIi-U, hardware differences, cutting back effects, etc, months of that alone for a single version of the engine.  "

"Updated engine will take just as long and be as much as a headache. "

 I am sorry if I am being rude, but now youre just making hasty assumptions, aren't you?

No I'm not

"I personally take the Unreal 4 claims that Mark Rein made as the same with Unreal 3 and the Wii."

 No, he never said devs would be able to port UE3 games for the Wii. Now he said "you can port UE4 games for the WiiU if you want".  it's a totally different situation.

Oh yes he did: "Ummmmm, well, this is kinda a high definition engine. Designed for a certain level of graphics card and certain amount of CPU. You know, I'm sure one of our licensees will squeeze it down into the Wii. The way Ubisoft squeezed Unreal Engine 2 into the PSP," - http://www.joystiq.com/2007/03/08/mark-rein-says-no-unreal-engine-3-for-wii/

"Second: As far as any modern GPU made from 2009-2010 running Unreal 4 to the specs that they've shown, I'm going to say no.  I have a modern card in my tower, mid range GTX 560 Ti, Arkham City near max settings with medium physics makes the game have slowdowns and that's Unreal 3." 

Now youre using your bad performance in order to say its not possible to run the game. They could simply tone down the game just to run on your hardware, which means your hardware is capable of running the engine, maybe it's not the graphics you want, but the game/engine is running just fine.
Arkham City runs great, my GTX 560 Ti has a bit of trouble at high settings, tesselation and gpu based physics set to medium.  Which is also running on Unreal 3, what do you think Unreal 4 at higher settings are going to do?  Games running on current mid range cards are going to have to downgrade textures, lighting, effects, physics etc to run at smooth framerates.
"For comparison purposes Epic had their Sammartarian demo running on 3 GTX 580s.  Will games run on any run of the mill 09 card?  Of course, with medium settings, might as well play the game on PS3/360 at that point. "

Same as above.
Read response

"Which re-iterates back to Unreal 4 and Wii-U, most likely has to be trimmed down to get it running well"
Again, the engine is very scalable, and we still need to see the final specs (which can't be worse then what we already have). 
Yes scalable, which means things have to go to make it run well on lower specs.

"And Unreal 4 is very new tech, a dev will have to spare a lot of resources to put into porting the engine over just for the Wii-U and if Epic makes updates, those updates have to ported over as well by the dev, if at all possible.  That's just not cost effective."
I completely disagree with you. Ubisoft already said it costs something around 1~2M to port HD games for the WiiU and it just needs to sell 150~200k (at $30) in order to give a good profit, it's easy money and it's worth the effort for sure.
There's a difference between porting Unreal 2/3 games to the Wii-U as Epic has already ported Unreal 3 over and Ubisoft has hacked the Unreal 2 more times than I can count.

Now let's take a look at his words again:
"but Unreal Engine 4 is going to be supremely scalable. We’ll run on mobile phones and on a wide variety of things, so if a customer decides they want to port an Unreal Engine 4 game to Wii U, they could."
You see? He never said developers will need to port the engine (as you are trying to imply), he only said devs will be able to port games, and that it's a very scalable engine.
However I am not veeery worried about it because the so called "next gen game" Star Wars 1313 is running on Unreal Engine 3 and Watch Dogs is running on Ubisoft's new engine.
Again you can't port a game anywhere without the underlying technology with it, it does not work like that.  If a game is made with Unreal 4 and they want it on the Wii U they either re-write the game to run on Unreal 3 or port Unreal 4 over.  It's like saying a 360 game can have a raw port over to the PS3 despite the PS3 not having Direct X.





TWRoO said:
selnor said:
spurgeonryan said:
Sal.Paradise said:

"it's clear that the company is taking HD seriously this time around."

Are they? I mean, you have a 2d platformer and a game originally planned for Wii and they don't even output 1080p?
I see people defending this as, well....you know..it's hard, cut 'em some slack! Or, hey, casuals don't care about the difference in resolution! Well that's not taking HD seriously enough for me.


I was going to be impressed that you read through the whole thing, but then I realized you copies and paste the first sentence. Sort of.

They are bringing over a hell of a lot of ports from the HD consoles and jazzing them up a bit. Zombie U looks nice, and there are a lot of other games coming out that are looking pretty Niiice as well. I think for Nintendo they are taking it seriously, but the other guys are still sort of in a league of their own when it comes to dealing with Power.

I remember when Nintendo were top in power. Nes, Snes and N64. For me Nintendos best years. Mario 64, OOT, DKC, Perfect Dark, Super Metroid, Starfox, Starfox 64, 1080 Snowboarding, Waverace 64 all blew me away. And still imo not beaten by Ninty themselves to this day. I loved Nintendo then.

The NES was not the top in power, the SNES was also not top in power due to the NeoGeo, and given it released 2 years after the Megadrive it's quite easy for it to top that. The N64 was the top dog at least but similar to SNES release it launched 1.5 years after the other two major competitors (1 year late could be a delayed machine, but 1.5 probably indicates the console development started later than competitors... though we don't need to make that assumption with N64 as we know a little of the history in that Nintendo was working with Sony to make a SNES CD, the origins of the PSX date well back before the N64, although it was slow to develop due to being a new project a lot of work was done before the N64 even started development).

Nintendo have never strived to be "bleeding edge" like Sony have... they haven't made a leap as deliberately small as with the Wii before but the doesn't mean the opposite is true for their earlier consoles, it's more the staggered nature of the generation leap as well as Nintendo's own success that caused them to be at the graphical high end for SNES to GC (meaning competitors were releasing consoles considered as part of the new gen while Nintendo was still able to sell NES and SNES)

Even if Nintendo went bleeding edge with the Wii U, with it releasing a good year before Nextbox/PS4 the best it could be is equal in graphical capability to the other two (and that's assuming that Sony/MS didn't push any boundaries)


First your Sony part is completly wrong, its like you forgot about PS1 and 2 as none of them were bleeding edge tech. ANd Ninty never went for bleeding tech?? YOu sure? N64 they were going for it Id say and the GC to a lesser extent.