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Forums - General Discussion - ‘You’ve made your choice’: Man shares dad’s brutal letter disowning him for being gay

Player1x3 said:

Mnementh said:

Nobody died in the name of atheism. Or did someone made an atheist crusade or an atheist burning of witches or an atheist inquisition? What you mean is, that religions aren't the only ideologies, that cause harm. Facism, Stalinism, Maoism and so on had many victims. Although these ideologies weren't religious, tehy didn't claim they had to kill you because they are atheists.


No, they just killed you because you were theist. That's like saying ''KKK didn't lynch people for being black, they lynched them for not being white''

You're wrong. If you look at this list you can see, that a big number of the deaths can be accounted to famines, produced by completely wrong decisions. Namely the big leap forward in China was a big desaster. Communists killings were mostly against political enemies. Also the different facism killed people mostly because of their race and secondly because they were on a different political side (communists and social democrats mostly). In the atlantic slave trade most people were harmed simply because of profits. Most wars were fought over power. So this leaves the number of people killed from atheist because they were theists very small in comparison to all the other reasons.



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happydolphin said:
KungKras said:
happydolphin said:
KungKras said:

Sexuality is not chosen by an individual. Most evidence points to that. It's not 100% clear if it is upbringing or genetics or whatever, but what is clear is that it isn't chioce. And I'm sure there are gay people on the site that can confirm that. If that's not enough I'm sure I can dig up some studies, but I'm hoping I don't have to put in the effort.

The way I understand lifestyle is that it has to do with the choices an indvidual makes about his/her life, and since religion is detemined more or less by choice, yes religion is closer to the definition of lifestyle than sexuality.

Most evolutionists would disagree with you, since religion is a psychological fabrication that comes from the need to seek a higher power, a product of evolution.

Either way why would religion be less inherent than sexuality. One is psychological/sexual, the other psychological. Yet we know murder is psychological, yet a person can be born murderous. As such, a person can just as easily be born religious.

See, it's possible to liken something to murder without trying to defamate said things (I'm saying this to all those who constantly say "your comparison is crap because you liken homosexuality to murder". I just likened it to religion so hope that proves the argument was bogus all along).

You probably misunderstood what the evolutionists meant about religion. Humans have a natural urge to explain things, and childs are very impressionable, so they will take what you tell them seriously. That's why people always have had mythology, because people always tell each other stories, and have a natural need for things to be explained. There is also a power hierarchy built into people's mentality, so if you tell them that they are following an all-powerful being, they'll accept it.

It is less inherent because people have more or less control about it. Otherwise, Iran would still be zoroastrian and I would be believeing in Odin and try to die in battle so I could go to Valhalla. And there would be no atheists. People can choose their religion. Where do you get that people can be born religious from? Perhaps they can be born with a mentality more prone to religion, but noone is born religious.

You're right that a person can be born murderous, but I't far more complicated than that, it's more about brain defects/sickness/psychosis. Perfectly normal people may or may not be religious, and perfectly normal people may or may not kill (war, self-defence, etc) so I don't accept that comparison.

 

Whether it's a defect or a simple difference in the way the brain works (both healthy) is not really what matters. What matters is the fact that this is an inherent physioligical quality, as much as homosexuality is.

As for people not being able to be atheist, I did say some could be born religious right? Also, some can learn it (nature and nurture being two different things).

Anyways it's pretty straightforward that everyone has a certain design all the way down to their most basic attitudes (see the "Free Will" thread by The1). So religion is no exception.

My point was that people can still coose what religion they believe in (provided they weren't indocrrinated from birth). There is no such thing as a genetic/psycological christian. Sexuality is different.



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Mnementh said:

richardhutnik said:

I am going to jump on this from a said Biblical view.  If he found out his son ended up regularly visiting prostitutes and not getting married, but slept around with women in a bunch of one night stands (say he also got them pregnant), do you seriously thinking that his father would of disowned him?  If you do, then I will back off here.  But, I would say it wouldn't happen.  Add adultery to the fornication charge I am saying here also.  The reality is that his father has a selective respect for the Bible, that is far more emotionally driven.  There are a bunch of other said sins in the Bible that his father would still accept his son over.  Heck, if he found out his son was a hitman, I am fairly sure his father wouldn't disown them.

What pretty much sickens me here is a selective application of things that lead to this state.

I agreee. For many people sadly is being gay a greater sin than other stuff. If his son would be an investment banker and was making his part in the financial crisis, would the father have disowned his son? Although this is a case of the sin of greed? Homosexuality that harms no one is for many people (especially religious one, but not restricted to them) worse than other things that do people harm.  I think that is wrong.

It is interesting how cultural norms end up changing over time.  I am of the understanding that gluttony, centuries ago, was considered far more offense than even things in the sexual area.  But now, you see gluttony as a lifestyle norm in American society.  Coveting ends up being advertising, and people sowed with a LOT of discontent.  Hey, I guess it is ok, because mass production means that EVERYONE gets something they want.



KungKras said:

My point was that people can still coose what religion they believe in (provided they weren't indocrrinated from birth). There is no such thing as a genetic/psycological christian. Sexuality is different.

I really don't see how you could be so sure. Why is one person drawn to one religion over another? Probably because it rings more with them than the others do

This just seems horribly biased.



I think religion is only partly to blame here. Sure, the abrahamic religions (christianity, islam, judaism) have horrible stances to homosexuality. But that's only one part. As someone (EDIT: it was richardhutnik) pointed out in this thread, many people care far more for homosexuality than for other sins. So the religion is only an explanation for their hate against homosexuality. Also non-religious people can hate gay people.



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happydolphin said:
KungKras said:

My point was that people can still coose what religion they believe in (provided they weren't indocrrinated from birth). There is no such thing as a genetic/psycological christian. Sexuality is different.

I really don't see how you could be so sure. Why is one person drawn to one religion over another? Probably because it rings more with them than the others do

This just seems horribly biased.

I could make a similar argument for politics being genetic by asking why a person is drawn to his political party of choice . If you widen your definition that much, everything becomes genetics.

Yes, I'm probably biased, but you're most likely biased as well. Let's hope that the clash of our biases is a thought provoking one.



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KungKras said:
My point was that people can still coose what religion they believe in (provided they weren't indocrrinated from birth). There is no such thing as a genetic/psycological christian. Sexuality is different.

 

right as you may be, don't bother with it.  You can't argue with people believe that. 



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KungKras said:

I could make a similar argument for politics being genetic by asking why a person is drawn to his political party of choice . If you widen your definition that much, everything becomes genetics.

Yes, I'm probably biased, but you're most likely biased as well. Let's hope that the clash of our biases is a thought provoking one.

I can work with that.



happydolphin said:
KungKras said:

My point was that people can still coose what religion they believe in (provided they weren't indocrrinated from birth). There is no such thing as a genetic/psycological christian. Sexuality is different.

I really don't see how you could be so sure. Why is one person drawn to one religion over another? Probably because it rings more with them than the others do

This just seems horribly biased.

It is possible, that some people are inherent more religious than other. But people are mostly choose the religion that is most common in their region and/or is the religion of their parents. If a religious guy is born in China he becomes a Buddhist, is he located in the USA he becomes a Christian and so on. Also different religions have different takes on homosexuality. The abrahamic religions are against it, but that's not usually so. Also even members of abrahamic religions can accept or tolerate homosexuality. Also some gay people are christians.

So, in no way it's predetermined that the father disowns the homosexual son, as the son is homosexual. The father had a choice. Even as a christian.



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Mnementh said:
happydolphin said:
KungKras said:

My point was that people can still coose what religion they believe in (provided they weren't indocrrinated from birth). There is no such thing as a genetic/psycological christian. Sexuality is different.

I really don't see how you could be so sure. Why is one person drawn to one religion over another? Probably because it rings more with them than the others do

This just seems horribly biased.

It is possible, that some people are inherent more religious than other. But people are mostly choose the religion that is most common in their region and/or is the religion of their parents. If a religious guy is born in China he becomes a Buddhist, is he located in the USA he becomes a Christian and so on. Also different religions have different takes on homosexuality. The abrahamic religions are against it, but that's not usually so. Also even members of abrahamic religions can accept or tolerate homosexuality. Also some gay people are christians.

So, in no way it's predetermined that the father disowns the homosexual son, as the son is homosexual. The father had a choice. Even as a christian.

Yep, but even as you said, even if he weren't religious, he could be anti-homosexuality, even a homophobe. That also would be something I would think is inherent and can only be unlearned so to speak.

So in the end, all is inherent, some things are just learned or unlearned.