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Forums - General Discussion - ‘You’ve made your choice’: Man shares dad’s brutal letter disowning him for being gay

happydolphin said:
KungKras said:
happydolphin said:
Player1x3 said:

It still wasn't a hateful letter and he doesn't hate his son. Also, thinking something is wrong doesn't always mean you hate it

@bold. Yeah, but when it comes to the point of disowning, it's because the parent hates the lifestyle or choice of the child, no matter what that may be. It goes without saying.

Sexuality =/= lifestyle

You completely missed the point of my post. Did you even care to read it or just came in to correct all occurence of lifestyle with "Sexuality =/= lifestyle"?

To make the question even more difficult, is belief == lifestyle? Where do you draw the line?

I know for a fact that a race is absolutely not chosen and is not something one can choose to follow through on. I can't say the same about neither religion nor sexual orientation.

Sexuality is not chosen by an individual. Most evidence points to that. It's not 100% clear if it is upbringing or genetics or whatever, but what is clear is that it isn't chioce. And I'm sure there are gay people on the site that can confirm that. If that's not enough I'm sure I can dig up some studies, but I'm hoping I don't have to put in the effort.

The way I understand lifestyle is that it has to do with the choices an indvidual makes about his/her life, and since religion is detemined more or less by choice, yes religion is closer to the definition of lifestyle than sexuality.



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Frozone said:

No parent wants their offspring to turn out gay.


What about the parents in my country who are gay themselves? Would they also be ashamed if one of their children later turned out to be attracted to people of the same sex?



sales2099 said:
This is a serious topic, so Ill tread lightly.

This isnt an issue of tolerance so much as religious blasphemy. Christians have their beliefs and we are entitled to enforce them. That doesnt mean I hate homosexuals. I just believe that as a Christian you are to get married to the opposite sex to have a "biological" (key word) family. Also, many people want their legacy, their bloodline, to continue. To have a gay child means your entire family tree stops dead at that generation (biological one, again key word).

Was the father too harsh? Yes. More tolerance should have been applied. But from his point of view, as a father and a Christian, it must be upsetting that the child wont carry on the name and have that cliche picture perfect family.

But cases like this are actually not an issue compared to other religions. Not to deflect, but Islam/Muslim parents typically react much harsher to these types of situations.

No, no you're not. At least not in a moral society.



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KungKras said:

Sexuality is not chosen by an individual. Most evidence points to that. It's not 100% clear if it is upbringing or genetics or whatever, but what is clear is that it isn't chioce. And I'm sure there are gay people on the site that can confirm that. If that's not enough I'm sure I can dig up some studies, but I'm hoping I don't have to put in the effort.

The way I understand lifestyle is that it has to do with the choices an indvidual makes about his/her life, and since religion is detemined more or less by choice, yes religion is closer to the definition of lifestyle than sexuality.

Most evolutionists would disagree with you, since religion is a psychological fabrication that comes from the need to seek a higher power, a product of evolution.

Either way why would religion be less inherent than sexuality. One is psychological/sexual, the other psychological. Yet we know murder is psychological, yet a person can be born murderous. As such, a person can just as easily be born religious.

See, it's possible to liken something to murder without trying to defamate said things (I'm saying this to all those who constantly say "your comparison is crap because you liken homosexuality to murder". I just likened it to religion so hope that proves the argument was bogus all along).



sales2099 said:

This is still an arguable point. Biologically, the male is genetically made to be attracted to the female. So either its a choice, sexual confusion, or its an anomaly, given that the gay population is a vast, vast numerical minority.

Dont take anomaly as a insult, I meant it as a numerical comparison.

Bolded is debatable. Homosexuality is obviously something natural, as it is observed for many mammals and is far too common to be a mutation or a fuckup in the recombination of genes. So it's probably of some evolutionary benefit amnd very likely our genes hold a usual preference for the other gender but ALSO a preference for the same gender. Which gene is expressed decdes if you are heterosexual, homosexual or even bisexual.



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KungKras said:
Player1x3 said:

Sexuality obviously has a lot of influence on one's lifestyle

Everything one does has an influnece on ones lifestyle. Sexuality still =/= lifestyle.

couldn't agree more....



 

sales2099 said:
KungKras said:
Marks said:
I wouldn't disown my kid if he was gay, but I certaintly wouldn't be proud of his lifestyle (choice).

People don't choose their sexuality.

This is still an arguable point. Biologically, the male is genetically made to be attracted to the female. So either its a choice, sexual confusion, or its an anomaly, given that the gay population is a vast, vast numerical minority.

Dont take anomaly as a insult, I meant it as a numerical comparison.  

It's not that arguable from what I've read about it. As I said to happydolphin, I'm sure I could dig up some studies that prove it, but I wonder if it would be worth the effort.



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happydolphin said:
KungKras said:

Sexuality is not chosen by an individual. Most evidence points to that. It's not 100% clear if it is upbringing or genetics or whatever, but what is clear is that it isn't chioce. And I'm sure there are gay people on the site that can confirm that. If that's not enough I'm sure I can dig up some studies, but I'm hoping I don't have to put in the effort.

The way I understand lifestyle is that it has to do with the choices an indvidual makes about his/her life, and since religion is detemined more or less by choice, yes religion is closer to the definition of lifestyle than sexuality.

Most evolutionists would disagree with you, since religion is a psychological fabrication that comes from the need to seek a higher power, a product of evolution.

Either way why would religion be less inherent than sexuality. One is psychological/sexual, the other psychological. Yet we know murder is psychological, yet a person can be born murderous. As such, a person can just as easily be born religious.

See, it's possible to liken something to murder without trying to defamate said things (I'm saying this to all those who constantly say "your comparison is crap because you liken homosexuality to murder". I just likened it to religion so hope that proves the argument was bogus all along).

You probably misunderstood what the evolutionists meant about religion. Humans have a natural urge to explain things, and childs are very impressionable, so they will take what you tell them seriously. That's why people always have had mythology, because people always tell each other stories, and have a natural need for things to be explained. There is also a power hierarchy built into people's mentality, so if you tell them that they are following an all-powerful being, they'll accept it.

It is less inherent because people have more or less control about it. Otherwise, Iran would still be zoroastrian and I would be believeing in Odin and try to die in battle so I could go to Valhalla. And there would be no atheists. People can choose their religion. Where do you get that people can be born religious from? Perhaps they can be born with a mentality more prone to religion, but noone is born religious.

You're right that a person can be born murderous, but I't far more complicated than that, it's more about brain defects/sickness/psychosis. Perfectly normal people may or may not be religious, and perfectly normal people may or may not kill (war, self-defence, etc) so I don't accept that comparison.

 



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KungKras said:
happydolphin said:
KungKras said:

Sexuality is not chosen by an individual. Most evidence points to that. It's not 100% clear if it is upbringing or genetics or whatever, but what is clear is that it isn't chioce. And I'm sure there are gay people on the site that can confirm that. If that's not enough I'm sure I can dig up some studies, but I'm hoping I don't have to put in the effort.

The way I understand lifestyle is that it has to do with the choices an indvidual makes about his/her life, and since religion is detemined more or less by choice, yes religion is closer to the definition of lifestyle than sexuality.

Most evolutionists would disagree with you, since religion is a psychological fabrication that comes from the need to seek a higher power, a product of evolution.

Either way why would religion be less inherent than sexuality. One is psychological/sexual, the other psychological. Yet we know murder is psychological, yet a person can be born murderous. As such, a person can just as easily be born religious.

See, it's possible to liken something to murder without trying to defamate said things (I'm saying this to all those who constantly say "your comparison is crap because you liken homosexuality to murder". I just likened it to religion so hope that proves the argument was bogus all along).

You probably misunderstood what the evolutionists meant about religion. Humans have a natural urge to explain things, and childs are very impressionable, so they will take what you tell them seriously. That's why people always have had mythology, because people always tell each other stories, and have a natural need for things to be explained. There is also a power hierarchy built into people's mentality, so if you tell them that they are following an all-powerful being, they'll accept it.

It is less inherent because people have more or less control about it. Otherwise, Iran would still be zoroastrian and I would be believeing in Odin and try to die in battle so I could go to Valhalla. And there would be no atheists. People can choose their religion. Where do you get that people can be born religious from? Perhaps they can be born with a mentality more prone to religion, but noone is born religious.

You're right that a person can be born murderous, but I't far more complicated than that, it's more about brain defects/sickness/psychosis. Perfectly normal people may or may not be religious, and perfectly normal people may or may not kill (war, self-defence, etc) so I don't accept that comparison.

 

Whether it's a defect or a simple difference in the way the brain works (both healthy) is not really what matters. What matters is the fact that this is an inherent physioligical quality, as much as homosexuality is.

As for people not being able to be atheist, I did say some could be born religious right? Also, some can learn it (nature and nurture being two different things).

Anyways it's pretty straightforward that everyone has a certain design all the way down to their most basic attitudes (see the "Free Will" thread by The1). So religion is no exception.



Player1x3 said:


I disagree. I think that most religions (at least in their basis and at the time of their foundation) preach peace, love and tolerance. Its the people themselves that corrupt that and abuse it for their personal greed and power. Religious institutions were also guilty of this

The belief itself is still horribly flawed and illogical, regardless.  I've made it clear there are two main things I hate about religion: 

1 - the ignorant faith-based belief system based not on the slightest bit of logic, rationality, or science.  

2 - The people who use this belief system as a launching point for their hate or misinterpret it so they can be bigoted/violent. 

Pretty simple, really. 



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