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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Sex and the Zero Suit: Why Samus was Great Only in Metroid Prime

Khuutra said:
Mr Khan said:

Long hair wouldn't really have done enough, though. It was the 80s, the age of Conan the Barbarian among other things, long haired he-heroes were in vogue.

I still think you're making mountains out of mole-hills, here (and that Rol is kicking your ass quite thoroughly in this engagement). One especially valid point of his is that how many gamers even see that suit, or know that she's a girl? In the age before the internet was around to spoil all this, it was probably enough to know from your friends that beating the game quickly or thoroughly enough revealed who it was under the armor, and that was probably cool enough on its own. I sincerely doubt very many people went around saying "dude, you get a chick in pixellated black-and-white panties if you clear out Metroid II quick enough."

"All of that is beside the point," I said.

These discussions are not fights, and they are not competitions whereby eahc participant is awarded points to build up toward a "victory." They are free exchanges of ideas where, ideally, we are made to look at our assumptions about the topics at hand and reconsider our positions in light of the perspectives provided by other people. I started this thread and wrote the OP specifically because what the women quoted in that article said about Samus made me consider why I thought of her as an effective character. Just above these posts, Rol steps back and reconsiders his assumptions about gender in a few key ways, and I am immensely proud to have been part of that exchange, even though he could only come to those conclusions on his own.

Whether or not the reward was widespread is not material to the discussion. It's the fact that it exists, as incentive for high-level play, that is at issue.

The further Nintendo moves away from the core of what makes Samus engaging (she is the ultimate solitary ass-kicker who just happens to have lady bits) the more people are removed from being able to identify with her, and the worse the games become as a result, or at least the less Metroid-like they become.

Samus is not a great female character, she is a great character period in that she is the ultimate embodiment of the faceless hero who anyone can identify with. The more Nintendo loses sight of that, the more it erodes at what made her great in the past.

I still contend that high-level play is its own reward, and the suitlessness is merely there to signify as such, and has no deeper meaning intentional or otherwise. That could just be me, though. I'm the kind of person who often-viciously lambasts literary thinkers and some writers for trying to make every cigar into a symbol, with that being the reason for my distaste of such so-called "classics" as Catcher in the Rye

Your other points i agree with.

Nor did i mean to frame this in the form of a competition, just that i took issue with your initial assertion in a way that i could not identify, but that Rol verbalized perfectly. We all hopefully learn something here.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Mr Khan said:

I still contend that high-level play is its own reward, and the suitlessness is merely there to signify as such, and has no deeper meaning intentional or otherwise. That could just be me, though. I'm the kind of person who often-viciously lambasts literary thinkers and some writers for trying to make every cigar into a symbol, with that being the reason for my distaste of such so-called "classics" as Catcher in the Rye

Your other points i agree with.

Nor did i mean to frame this in the form of a competition, just that i took issue with your initial assertion in a way that i could not identify, but that Rol verbalized perfectly. We all hopefully learn something here.

The default presentation of sex as a signifier of progress is exactly what I was talking about anyway, and is still problematic both at large and more specifically in the case of Samus.



Khuutra said:
amp316 said:
The problem with Other M isn't that Samus was made into a more female character for me. The problem was that she was a dumb female character that was willing to burn to death and not use the very equipment that would protect her from doing so without taking orders from a man. Other M makes her look like a hot, dumb, and subservient plaything instead of the badass that she always was.

Other M had a plethora of problems not directly related to the problem of breaking away from the faceless hero archetype, yes, that is very true.

I still hold that it is evidence that the people holding the reins of the franchise do not know how to make her into an effective female character. We have an entire game dedicated to exploring the emotional depths of Samus, and it turns out all of her feelings are womb feelings. You and I agree this is bad; I'm just taking my conclusions a step further from that.

My solution is for Nintendo to step back from that, excise the characterization of Samus they've tired to establish in FUsion and Other M, and return to the respectful, solitary, powerful treatment she was given in Prime, where it was so easy to identify with her constantly.

I agree that they should stop worrying about the fact that a beautiful woman is encased in the armor and just let her kill Metroid and space pirates.  Just show her getting into the armor at the beginning and out of the armor at the end of the adventure.  The game shouldn't be concentrating on how she's female which is basically what Other M did.  This isn't a sexist statement.  I would be just as annoyed with a game about how Mario is a man.  I agree with you that they should just return the Metroid series to what it was.  Just have Samus be a voiceless character encased in armor.  As I said, sexiness is not the problem.  The problem is the inability of Nintendo to write a story about a sexy and powerful female without mucking it up so they just should abandon the idea altogether.  



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well whose to say exactly that it is intended to be an award? If i had a heavy varia suit, jumping around, turning into a ball, running through lava filled caves...i think id only have my boxers on too.

what would you wear? a sweater, jeans, khakis...
just a thought



I don't think the creators sat back and put as much thought as we think they did. We probably assigned waaaay more meaning to certain things than they ever intended.



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d21lewis said:
I don't think the creators sat back and put as much thought as we think they did. We probably assigned waaaay more meaning to certain things than they ever intended.

Exactly.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

d21lewis said:
I don't think the creators sat back and put as much thought as we think they did. We probably assigned waaaay more meaning to certain things than they ever intended.

THat's possible - even likely. It doesn't really take away from the point, though



At this point I don't really have anything to add, so I will just say that this is one hell of an excellent topic.



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umegames said:
well whose to say exactly that it is intended to be an award? If i had a heavy varia suit, jumping around, turning into a ball, running through lava filled caves...i think id only have my boxers on too.

what would you wear? a sweater, jeans, khakis...
just a thought

Well, yes, it makes sense for her to not wear a lot underneath her massive body armor, but there's still a couple of things that need to be considered here

1. When you are creating fiction, you create all of the parameters which determine the way your character interacts with the world. Samus wearing her udnerwear or the Zero Suit under her armor makes a certain amount of sense, but only because that's the world in which the designers chose to place her. This doesn't need to be worried about too much because, as I said before, the fact of her being sexy under the suit isn't really a problem.

2. There is a world of difference between exploitative and non-exploitative presentations of sex in art. Ripley running around in her underwear in the first Alien movie was, according to many metrics, sexy, but it never felt exploitative because of the way it was presented - though of course some people would argue this point I guess. Even if you choose to see the presentation of Ripley as exploitative, though, there are ways to show sexy women that are not exploitative of the fact that they're sexy. Metroid has managed to do this all of once, and that was in Metroid Prime, not so much in the ending as in the concept art where they had a layered cutaway showing Samus under the Varia suit. In every other Metroid game, Samus's body is leveraged as a reward for performance, which is pretty much the perfect example of exploitative representations of sex.

Just so I won't need to reiterate this beyond this post: there is nothing wrong with sex, there is nothing wrong with liking to look at sexy ladies, and there's nothing wrong with actually liking the sex reward system in Metroid. It's just that it undermines the particular strengths of Samus's character, as the faceless voiceless unstoppable bad-ass hero.

@TheRepublic:

Thank you.



Khuutra said:

It's just that it undermines the particular strengths of Samus's character, as the faceless voiceless unstoppable bad-ass hero.


But that's no character at all.  I could throw a dart at any game from the SNES era and earlier and hit that character.  The guys from Contra, the guy from Super Turrican, the jet in Firepower 2000, the lady ninja from Shadow of the Ninja.  Being silent and kicking ass is what old video game characters did.  Samus is  just a chick that did the same thing as anybody else from that time.  I could argue that actually showing  a bit of skin is actually what gave Samus her character.  For all we know, Samus is actually a huge slut but she's just really good at killing aliens.  Take that, women's movement!