On point 2, yes, but i remain firm in my assertion that this is strictly a cosmetic matter. Few folks, if anyone, will be motivated strictly by the image itself, but rather by what the image represents. The image is just like an Achievement or a Trophy, fundamentally without substance.

As an aside, that Sith Governor is ripping me a new ass every time i throw myself at him. Is *now* the time i'm supposed to start letting them level? And i felt so proud for beating the assault droid without having to use the computer to disable its shields...

For KotoR: In theory no, but spending your levels will completely heal your character so spend them now if you need to. One at a time. It's a free full heal medkit that ignores the need to be used.

For the topic at hand:

Given that they use Samus's sex as a reward to encourage high-level play in those games, do you acknowledge that we are not rewarded in the same way in Metroid Prime, Echoes, and (mostly) Corruption?

I want to understand your arguments better.

1) How does this relate into real-world gender issues, aside from the fact that this content isn't enjoyable by a female group?

2) This feels a lot like PC to me, but trying to argue semantics will get us nowhere. I do not deny that "sex" was used in some way to "sell" the metroid series. What is inherintly wrong with this? One simple point (which I understand doesn't cover everything) is that If you don't like the way it's represented, don't support it with moeny.

3) Don't pretend like this is a new discussion. It might only feel fresh because of the big hullabaloo regarding the rape scene that doesn't exist in tomb raider, but this discussion has been around for quite a damn while, and it's getting tiring to read the same things over and over with no action on those people's part. If you want change, bring it up and DO something about it, don't bring it up, then bring it up, then bring it up, then bring it up again.

Maybe this is your first forray into the subject matter, in which case I don't mean the above statement personally to you, but the industry as a whole. Also why is this such a terrible problem in our industry when these events take place in every industry in every fascet of the human existence? Women seem to advocate it themselves just as much in other areas (women's products are some of the most sex-driven things I've ever seen).

Now I am becoming angry, I need to step away for half an hour or so

Echoes and Corruption had the reward, if we are to agree that Prime's reward does not objectify Samus in any way. Prime 2 was my first exposure to the Zero Suit, since i never played Zero Mission, so i definitely remember it, and Corruption awarded you with the Zero Suit as well. It's just that their ultimate rewards were sequel hooks in all cases.

I'm sorry. I'll agree to do my best to stay perfectly pointified and objectified in my responses so as to not add any extra hints of emotion behind them which might raise your own emotions against mine. I know this is a very controversial and hotly debated topic where emotions are very easily escalated (even my own). 

You are participating in a discussion that is taking place parallel to this topic, not within the topic itself, and certainly not in the conversations I've been having up to this point.

I have not put forth that there is anything intrinsically wrong with using sex as an incentive.

I have not put forth that sex was used to sell Metroid. In the majority of territories that assertion would be preposterous, and it's preposterous from your own mouth. Even if sex were used to sell Metroid, that would not be problematic on its own, because it would mean a very different sort of game was waiting for us.

I have not put forth any issues that directly relate to gender privileges as such.

This discussion is very specifically about Samus Aran, and about how she is at her best when her sex and gender are incidental and ancillary to her character; she functions best not as a woman, but as a warrior. Some people find this character typing problematic; I do not. However, that same androgyny, and the importance of it, which is tied up into the fact that anyone can project themselves onto Samus because it could be anyone under that suit, is undermined when Samus's sexuality is framed as an incentive and reward for high-level play. It undermines the non-sexuality of the character while removing her from the ego of the player, which is counterproductive to immersion on two separate fronts.

This discussion is about how Metroid Prime did Samus perfectly by making her into the Terminator, and how what human parts of her they showed were directly and elegantly tied into the player's own investment in the game. It was relatable instead of alienating and poignant instead of silly. That preserves the link between Samus and any player, including when she takes her helmet off and it turns out she was a girl the whole time. In that moment, I am still Samus. And so are you.

Do you have a more clear understanding of what this discussion is about?

Actually, I had not been aware that this was quite what the discussion was about. You feel that the sexualization is problematic strictly from an immersion perspective?

I seem to find that a non-issue, largely because a sense of immersion was not the purpose of Metroid gameplay *until* Metroid Prime.

Immersion is a component of it; the effectiveness of the character encompasses that as well as other points which I outlined in previous posts.

Immersion is rarely or never the stated intent of gameplay but it is a result of it. Metroid is an immersive, horrifying series on the whole, where it doesn't pull you out of it.

But again: immersion is only one part of it. The gist of it, the core of it, is about how Samus functions best as a non-sexual character

You're right, I thought this discussion was spin on sexism in general.

So you're just not liking the mix of two distinct styles that don't fit well together and create an overall negative experience. Fair enough.

Quesiton on this part: "So that brings us to the biggest question, which is, if every game treats Samus this way and manages to undermine the idea behind the character at the end"

"Every game"? Aside from Metroid Prime, every single game rewards you with sexy samus at the end, in effort to objectify her? I sincerely disagree. In fact, the fact that they changed from bikini to full body skin suit was a step away from that sexualization. And seeing samus in her zero suit during the games, when it MAKES SENSE to show it, is perfectly fine. She can be a dainty, sexy girl underneath that suit and that can be part of her personality and I'm fine with it.

I understand the distaste in showing her more progressively naked in the original title(s?) but I fail to see that in any modern-day Metroid game. It could just be a lack of recollection on my part, though, so do remind me where I'm wrong.

I'm fine with Samus being feminine, and I'm fine with her being sexy, and I'm fine with her at the same time being a badass bounty hunter who is completely ruthless. I'm fine with all of that as long as it makes sense to the story and her character development. Just because she has a blue zero suit on, doesn't mean she's not Samus.

Thinking of her only as a badass bounty hunter is very one-sided, and all of us humans are far more complex than that. She can have a sexy side, and I'll appreciate it as long as it's done in a productive manner. I won't really appreciate it if it's done in a degrading manner, but I also won't cry that it's destroying society. That's a different topic that you're not debating over, though.

Maybe we agree, maybe we don't. I'll give you the point that if she's purely objectified to please the sex drive in males, I find that to not be productive at all in the sense of character development. I don't, however, have an issue with zero suit samus when it's done for more than just sexual objectification.

Also, what do you (not actually directed at you) expect her to wear under that tight body armor? a jacket and sweatpants? *rambles*